[Reading Group] February 2014: Prince of Thorns Discussion

He wasn't forced to grow up fast, everyone is an adult by this age. You have to rid yourself of the word "teenager" when reading this series. Jorge is old enough to marry. Not because he was forced to grow up fast, but because all males become men at fourteen. (And females become women at twelve.)

He isn't a kid at court so much inexperienced. He left the castle at the age of ten, lived the life of a brigand, and returned to a hostile environment. The court scene isn't to show Jorge as still a child, it's to show Jorge as still trying to earn the respect and love of his father. I can see any man, of any age, respond the same to a father like Jorg's.

 

Yes, this.

How old was Temujin when he took over leadership of his tribe? 10 or 11? The tribe members abandoned him, but by 14 he had killed his half-brother and increased his standing among the tribes. Captured in raids at 15 or so (near as I can tell), married by 16 and then leading a raid to rescue his wife.

It's not that Jorg had to grow up fast. It's that people grew up fast in that environment. They lived shorter lives, acquired the rights and responsibilities of adults sooner, had kids sooner, and so on.

 

Spoiler: General point about Setting

Yeah, that's right. The pieces started falling into place during this block. I think you're on the right track.

 

Actually, up to this point, readers assume Jorg is pampered. There is nothing in this book that suggests as much.

This interests me. Does everyone think he is pampered because he's a prince? Just the usage of the word has directed your mind down one path?

If so, I'm appreciating Mark Lawrence's subtle manipulations of his readers. There is a lesson to ponder.

 

I'll have to think on that.

On one hand, these are memories from his eighth or ninth year. The further back you reach into your life, the more innocent life was. Even if you lived a life peppered with unkindness. This is a fact of innocence.

I'll give you that he had better accommodations and clothing, but I don't see those as pampering, only fitting for their status.

I don't see these lines as "pampered", so much as I see him as unburdened from his later responsibilities. At the age of ten, such responsibilities start to creep up on him. He is not expected to play. His tutor is putting him through studies of war, geography, and history in an obvious preparation for eventual rulership.

As to the lines mentioning the love of his mother and brother, I can't see those as pampered sentiments. It's a natural extension of a healthy parent-child relationship.

 

At this point I was still somewhat interested. I wouldn't say I was engrossed but I did like the references that showed this world to be a future of our reality.

I think these characters should've been developed more, or at least one of them. The Nuban is a potentially interesting character that we know little about, other than his limited interactions with Jorg. Since Jorg is supposed to be so intelligent, there could've been more insight on the supporting cast.

Mmmm....not really. Someone mentioned Katherine before but we don't see much of her & neither does Jorg. In fact, I found their interactions relatively meaningless other than a sexual attraction. It seems to me that the relationship established in book one will come into play in book two. To me, that's its only purpose.

They're both cut from the same cloth. They're sociopaths. Here's the thing though, sociopaths are chameleons of society. They act in ways that disguise their true thinking and actions. I think it would've been better to play on that idea, Jorg acting as a returning son would be expected to act in a certain way, all the while the thoughts he and the reader share show something entirely different. There are hints of this in the book but, in my opinion, it is underdeveloped.

Yes. I feel like I have a good idea where this will end up, just not the events leading to the conclusion.

Not at all. I don't think it's especially grim.

 

It seemed pretty obvious to me that he was signing a death sentence with the order. Jorg was convinced of this immediately, but he still sees it as opportunity.

Yes, totally out of left field and my biggest complaint about the book. All of a sudden we get these monstrous creatures that were never mentioned before. The same is true with the necromancers. It's not like these beings are unknown to the surface world, especially considering their proximity to Jorg's target. To me, this felt rushed and contrived. As a reader, I felt I was being pushed speedily toward and ending when the story was ready yet.

I didn't care much because I thought every supporting character was underdeveloped.

Again this seemed contrived. Unless I missed something, we haven't seen or heard of this activity before, so why does he do this now? Even if it was mentioned, I'd still need a damned good reason for a character's leap into cannibalism. It didn't seem like a natural thing for Jorg to do.

 

I am pretty into the story. I'm certainly not bored by it. The only detail I'm not really loving is that it's a future of our world. The names were confusing before, but now I'm kinda wishing it was just confusing names, not some sort of alternate future? It leaves me asking loads of questions.. like how nothing exists to be found, like machinery or buildings. Those make my stomach shrink up and my head hurt.

I'm actually a little disappointed. I wished there was more to them. I'm all for large casts and lots of moving pieces, but literally, I can't tell a lot of the brothers apart. Who is Price? One of them has no teeth and keeps pronouncing "Jorg" as "Jorth", but other than that... I'm only able to recall certain ones. For instance, when the priest took Red Kent's confession... I can't remember how he got that name, but it was significant to the point being made. I skipped over and missed the joke.

I actually don't, and I'm not sure I miss it. I loved when he pushed over the glass tree and I think it's great that he is calculating... I do'nt really need him to be human . Please, don't sleep with your aunt. I know you aren't blood relatives, but you're already depraved and she seems like a nice girl.

I think the father is testing him and I think he pushes back enough to let him know he's not playing.

I hope he doesn't go home, kill his father, throw his step-mother out a window, and take his aunt for his wife. I mean... that's probably what logically should happen, but I just hope it isn't what DOES.

I'm glad there's a deeper story. As fun as it was to open with the bandits and the journey, I'm glad we get to see Jorg be smart. He was rather one-dimensional for me for too long and without a larger story (with the dream witch and the Nuban and the magic elements), it was just a story about a kid with bad manners. A good one... but not enough to carry me through to the end. With the added elements of Castle Red and the magic... I'm mush more interested in seeing his next move. Before.. I just didn't want to see another village of shit-poor dirt farmers burn.

 

1. Why do you feel that the king really sent Jorg away? Is it in hopes that he will die given an impossible task? Or is it to really prove himself?

I think he meant for Jorg to die and no longer be a thorn in his side. I don't think he had any expectation whatsoever that Jorg would succeed and prove himself.

2. Do you feel like the introduction of Jane and the leucrota seemed out of left field? This definitely appears to be a low magic kind of world, but things are seeping in that don't seem normal. What are your thoughts about them?

Not really. At least, it didn't feel that way to me while reading. I figured during the last block we were in some kind of post-apocalyptic world, and given some of the strangeness we'd seen before this didn't bother me. In fact, I thought these elements made the story a lot more interesting. I think we're dealing with remnants of advanced tech, AIs, and the aftermath of advanced warfare.

3. How did you feel when some characters died on the way to the Great Stair?

I, too, only really cared about the Nuban. That was too bad. But I wasn't hugely invested in him. The other deaths didn't bother me in the least.

4. What was the significance (to you) of Jorg eating the necromancer's heart?

I think something is going on with Jorg that compels him to do strange things. Things that he might not normally do, or that seem bizarre. I guess we'll see if that is borne out.

 

He's going to turn out to be a character in an advanced MMO played by a really weird guy.