Religion-Building (or: What Makes Gods Tick?)

[Xabrina]

I'm trying to build two religions. As an aspiring religious studies major, I should have no issue with this, but... I'm struggling with my goddesses. Here's what I've got if you can bear to read through my rambling!

The basics: Two goddesses created this planet. They are not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent, though they at times seem that way. (There is a force that governs all things, and it is of this force that they were created. This is understood by those who worship them.) These are deeply imperfect beings despite their power.

Ahiya-Neta, worshipped mainly in the countries of Ghal and Set, created air, water, and darkness.
Zekka'Kar, worshipped almost exclusively in the country of Tel, created earth, fire, and light.

(A side note: light is not inherently good, dark, not inherently bad.)
As I like to put it: never say "may God strike me down right now" in my world unless you are ready to start dodging lightning. These gods physically manifest their presence. Science proves their existence. Math calculates them into its equations. The question is not whether or not the people in my world believe, but instead it is how they worship and what their goals are.

The long and short of the story here is that there was a point in which they split. They created a living world together, each balancing the other out in order to prepare a barren planet for the life they later gave it. But somewhere down the line, something changed. Instead of working together, they are working against each other.

Zekka'Kar is worshiped through the mindset of "Enlightenment through Pain," and conveniently, the more people you convert, the more this goddess reveres you. The people (and the goddess) honestly believe that one sees the truth in the moments of deepest agony. Recognize that, though they are often seen as brutally capturing and harming others, they honestly believe they're doing the right thing.

Ahiya-Neta is more of your traditional, ritualistic goddess. That is, she requires all kinds of rituals to be performed in her honor, but she's not going about it violently. It is much more the way a Catholic might worship, or even some more indigenous religions may have practitioners putting out food for the ancestors. She takes offerings, prayer, and the sanctity of her name much more seriously than her sister goddess ever would.

So I could probably write up little blurbs about their separate religions, but...

• The split - any ideas what it could have been over?
• What kind of ritual worship would a goddess like Neta require?
• What drives a pair of imperfect gods to even create a world?
• Should they gain actual power from the worship they receive?
• Hey, in that case, what kind of power would a god even need?
• Should there be other gods? Lesser ones? Greater ones?
• How do you approach religion-building? How does/do your god/gods operate in your world? What makes your fictional god or gods tick?

^^ Just some stuff I'm struggling with and conversation-starting questions.

Any suggestions, critiques, corrections, opinions, things I've forgotten to take into account, etc. are welcome and encouraged!!

Note: I am generally assuming this relates to FICTIONAL gods. But if there's an idea I should consider from a real religion, or a real religion that you've used in your stories that provides a nice framework, feel free to chime in.

 

[ThinkerX]

Ok...first off, just how set are you on the 'elemental' aspects of these goddesses? Because the one sounds like an air/water elemental, while the other comes across as a earth/fire elemental.

As a religion major, you should know the typical pagan pantheons were organized differently. Gods of rulership/sky/battle (Zeus, Ra, Indra, Odin, El); Mother/fertility goddesses (Isis, Astarte, Hera), deities of pure battle (Thor, Ares), Deities in charge of the 'civilized arts' (Athena, Apollo - egyptian and indian equivients escape me at the moment), and so on. Elemental deities as you describe here tended to be ancient, and sometimes monstrous (Tiamat, Cronus, ect).

What you seem to be aiming for is dualism, something like Zorasterism.

In that case, your goddesses have or had a father. Something happened that made the father god choose one of the daughter gods over the other (and maybe he got killed for it). The remnant of the pantheon chose sides.

Again, I'd suggest changing the elemental aspects of the goddesses.

 

[The Construct]

@ThinkerX:
The thing is, gods don't need to be realistic if they're...real, if you catch my meaning. It doesn't matter what the people of the world would realistically have believed should they have came to be without the presence of these elemental goddesses, because they were created by these goddesses and, because they legitimately exist in this setting, they worship them. Regardless of their elemental aspects. Elemental goddesses created the world so elemental goddesses will be worshiped as elemental goddesses.

"The split - any ideas what it could have been over?"
The father god loving one more than another may be a good idea for the cause of the split. Or they could have just discovered that some people worshiped one more than the other, and got competitive over who could get the most devout followers.

"What kind of ritual worship would a goddess like Neta require?"
Long prayer sessions, animal sacrifice, ritual dances, songs, readings from a holy text, etc.

"What drives a pair of imperfect gods to even create a world?"
Desire for worship. Curiosity. Boredom. Instinct.

"Should they gain actual power from the worship they receive?"
If they do that would be an obvious cause for wanting to create a world, so to have worshipers who can give them power. Which would also cause competition and then a split, over who can get the most power.

"Hey, in that case, what kind of power would a god even need?"
Perhaps they lose power over time, or they lost some when they created the world, and worship regenerates it. Or even just political power, who can have the most influence in a nation or culture.

"Should there be other gods? Lesser ones? Greater ones?"
Well there could be a father god as mentioned above, one who has more power, or had more power.

 

[Mythopoet]

First, let me say as an enthusiastic amateur scholar of ancient mythologies, I really like your ideas so far! What's more I really like the names you are using (for the goddesses and the lands). They have a ring of authenticity to them.

The split - any ideas what it could have been over?

I don't like the idea of a father god. I think the goddesses sound more interesting and original without being the product of something higher. What came to my mind was a song from the classic movie White Christmas that the two female leads sing. The last line is:

"Lord help the mister who comes between me and my sister, and lord help the sister who comes between me and my man."

What kind of ritual worship would a goddess like Neta require?

First, do you mean "require" in the sense of "need" or "demand"? I don't think I've ever heard of a real world belief system where gods "need" worship. Pagan gods tend to "demand" it. The Christian God "desires" it but does not need or demand. Since you mention Catholicism, I'll point out that Christian worship is an offering out of love. Catholic "rituals" are not done for the sake of God but for the sake of the worshipers.

What drives a pair of imperfect gods to even create a world?

Perhaps the same thing that drives we mere mortals to create our fantasy worlds: among other things, it is a part of our nature to be creative.

A side note: I have a hard time comprehending gods with the power to create worlds being as imperfect and limited as you say they are. In mythologies where there is a creator god, they are usually much more akin to the all powerful and all good God of Christianity than to the much more human and imperfect gods of, say, Greek or Norse myth who are not creators.

Should they gain actual power from the worship they receive?

Possibly, if they really are as imperfect as you say.

Hey, in that case, what kind of power would a god even need?

Perhaps the creation of the world expended much of their energy and the worship they receive helps to replenish their life force.

Should there be other gods? Lesser ones? Greater ones?

That's really up to your personal preference and depends on how you define gods. I would say there should certainly be some manner of other superhuman creatures beneath the two creators.

How do you approach religion-building? How does/do your god/gods operate in your world? What makes your fictional god or gods tick?

The cosmogony of my fantasy world is pretty complex. It is largely based on ancient Egyptian belief with aspects of Japanese, Celtic, Greek and Finnish mythologies thrown in. The divine and the supernatural is objectively real in my world as well and gods and supernatural beings inhabit the world alongside humans, interaction is common.

 

[wordwalker]

It's an intriguing concept.

Still, the thing that sticks in my mind--maybe from how you present it--is that you seem to have Zekka'Kar set up as a divine straw man. A reader's first impression is "faith through torture" makes her capital-E Evil and everything else about her is just spelling out the particular form her evil comes in. It's a valid way to build a universe, very Zoroastrian, but a bit distracting to modern tastes.

You might refine it (and especially how you talk about it) with something like Babylon 5's view that one philosophy tries to rule the universe through law while the other believes people grow through conflict and challenge. Or that Zekka'Kar's people grow through achievement and pushing themselves, often measured by voluntarily enduring pain, or forcing their will on others "to show them strength is better" and both prove their own power and hope they can convince their new subjects to join them in the Mission. I think those are aspects of the same principle, and working partly with those can round it out so Zekka'Kar has some room to be more than a source of pure trouble.

Meanwhile, what is it that Ahiya-Neta promotes? You call her ritualistic and somewhat "Catholic," but what do her followers emphasize, and do? I'm sure you have more in mind than that she is quiet harmony and her sister has all the "fun" of disrupting it, but how are each of these active beliefs, with at least some chance of the "positive" creed going awry and the "negative" doing some good?

 

[Kahle]

Split-obvious examples are the Olympians, Norse gods, and Tolkien. The Olympian fought the Titans after Kronos tried to kill all of his children to stop of prophecy. There you have prophecy/revenge as the initial split. For the Norse, I can't remember the details but there was a god/giant war which was a contest for dominance. With the formation of a new world, there are no rules or established hierarchies. Power struggles are usually violent and remake the world's surface so to speak. In Tolkien's Silmarillion, the father/creator forms thirteen gods to play "harmonies". Strife occurs when Melkior plays a different cord. Not evil, just different. From thereon out its everyone vs. Melkior for dominance of the world. So maybe what you're looking for is a dominance struggle/competition to create the first creatures/life? One could make humanity while the other creates the beasts of the earth.

Rituals-You might want to look into some Buddhist practices. You mention how powerful Neta's name is, so maybe the rituals use her name or another form of her name (common use: like how Christians say Lord or Him instead of God) as the final invocation, almost as amen is used. In Pure Land Buddhism, calling out the boddhisatva's name will get his attention and he will come and help you attain enlightenment-something along this line. Burning offerings, maybe something as simple as a special flower, or the person must carve an intricate figure or symbol (time and effort/dedication to their faith) and then burn/offer that instead. Giving a prized animal or such, the greater the loss to the individual, the greater the power of the offering-this is more biblical/old testament style, though blood sacrifice might not really work with Neta.

Drive-As Mythopoet said, have the world be the manifestation of their competition. One creates the sun, the other night to swallow it, countered by the moon and stars, then a ball of matter, which the other covers with waters...they were created/born and have a drive to create/give birth to something themselves? You're working with female figures here, so a fertility reference would be understandable.

Need for Worship-This reminds me of a few things-namely Elf and Age of Mythology. In both, the supernatural beings are dependent upon mortals for energy or power-which are not necessarily the same. It might be how the goddesses measure their prowess, or enhance their control over the world. When Kar's worshippers are more devout, the days are longer and the crops grow in good soil. When Neta is in control, the seas are full of fish and the winters longer. Neta's worshippers might even be in warmer climates, where the sea is the source of life and civilization, and winter means rain, not a frozen wasteland.

Lesser gods-demi gods or lesser gods could easily be formed. If the highest power gave birth to the two goddesses, then the goddesses could create vassals/messengers to do their will/physically walk amongst the followers. They could serve as manifestations of each goddesses' traits or powers. Maybe Neta has three princes that rule over the waters, air, and night for her.

Religion Building-People create religions, not gods. Gods simply exist and see the world for what it is. Take your culture, establish what they need, what's important to them. Then create a god that can aid them or give them answers as to why things happen. The ancient Greeks, Romans, Norse, and Egyptians all used their mythology to explain floods, eclipses, etc. Their stories explain the events of nature that we call science. As for how the gods interact and are portrayed, again look to the culture. The Greeks made their gods in their image (they believed the gods made man in their image like the Christians) and gave them all very human personalities and faults. The Abrahamic faiths believe in a God that is omniscient and omnipotent and perfect beyond human comprehension. The Egyptians gave their gods (focus on knowledge and death) the powers of animals and sacred duties that occupy them (unlike the Greek pantheon). The Norse also made very human gods, and styled after their own values (strong, powerful war and fertility gods)

 

[Athena]

Goddesses

Well...first of all some general stuff.About this greater power that created your goddesses...yesterday I read some story where the greater being was a void that
constantly created and destroyed things and in the end only 3 gods survived.Just some little creation story for ideas^^

The split - any ideas what it could have been over?
As your goddesses represent different elements and a world can only take so much of every element to be balanced...maybe at the balance point each wanted to add more
of their respective element or more races connected to that element...or more continents made of that element.

What kind of ritual worship would a goddess like Neta require?
Well I dunno if you count that as ritual worship...or what it even is...but maybe Neta's followers could build things for her.Like a church,a temple or just a figurine.
Other than that...there could be magical potions that somewhat connect a priest to the goddess.It could also be a state of trance induced by meditation.
There could also be a holy river one can bathe in,like in india.

What drives a pair of imperfect gods to even create a world?
There can be a lot of reasons for this...loneliness,the wish to try out their abilities,boredom.
They could also just search for a place they belong or create a world they could live on themselves.

Should they gain actual power from the worship they receive?
I don't think so...I think they should act out of an emotional reason like loneliness.
This would also provide a non selfish reason for them to love the things they create.

That's all I could come up with for now,depression induced uncreativity and stuff

 

[Scribble]

On religion building, Kahle made a very good point. One of the most fascinating (and often troublesome) aspects of religion is that the believers have different ideas of what the gods are, what they want, and what their role in the world is. Unless you have direct contact with the god, culture will do what culture does - it will evolve the idea to fit the spiritual needs and personality of the people. Warlike people make their gods warlike, fisherman ask the sea for it's bounty and fear it's anger, farmers want the right amount of rain and the right amount of sun at the right time of the year.

In all religions we know of, gods and goddesses are rarely created wholly conceived "out of nothing". They are always adapted from an earlier cultural image, absorbed into the religion over time. A local minor fertility goddess grows in popularity, and then becomes a major goddess hundreds of years later. Other gods or goddesses may disappear over time as the major assumes their responsibilities (life, death, law, etc...).

When a new culture invades and spreads it's own religion into the area, the previous gods may be also celebrated, or they may be turned into pagan demons. Sometimes it is a blending of ideas from both. You see this in India where aspects of Islam, Hindu beliefs and Buddhism are morphed and melded together. Haitian vodou is a melding of African beliefs with Catholicism, where many of the origins of their beliefs come from masking their ancestral gods and spirits under the guise of Catholic saints. Now, the two are inseparable, they are one religion.

It might be interesting to consider the history of the people living in that area, past conquests, early roots of the culture, etc...

In fiction, and in most religions, nothing angers the gods more than when we get it "wrong".

 

[Mythopoet]

On religion building, Kahle made a very good point. One of the most fascinating (and often troublesome) aspects of religion is that the believers have different ideas of what the gods are, what they want, and what their role in the world is. Unless you have direct contact with the god, culture will do what culture does - it will evolve the idea to fit the spiritual needs and personality of the people. Warlike people make their gods warlike, fisherman ask the sea for it's bounty and fear it's anger, farmers want the right amount of rain and the right amount of sun at the right time of the year.

In all religions we know of, gods and goddesses are rarely created wholly conceived "out of nothing". They are always adapted from an earlier cultural image, absorbed into the religion over time. A local minor fertility goddess grows in popularity, and then becomes a major goddess hundreds of years later. Other gods or goddesses may disappear over time as the major assumes their responsibilities (life, death, law, etc...).

When a new culture invades and spreads it's own religion into the area, the previous gods may be also celebrated, or they may be turned into pagan demons. Sometimes it is a blending of ideas from both. You see this in India where aspects of Islam, Hindu beliefs and Buddhism are morphed and melded together. Haitian vodou is a melding of African beliefs with Catholicism, where many of the origins of their beliefs come from masking their ancestral gods and spirits under the guise of Catholic saints. Now, the two are inseparable, they are one religion.

It might be interesting to consider the history of the people living in that area, past conquests, early roots of the culture, etc...

In fiction, and in most religions, nothing angers the gods more than when we get it "wrong".

This is only valid if the gods are not observable and scientifically verifiable in the world, as the OP explained.

 

[Scribble]

This is only valid if the gods are not observable and scientifically verifiable in the world, as the OP explained.

I see where you are coming from, but I slightly disagree that it is not possible to imagine. There are gods, who may or may not exist, and then there is religion, two separate but interrelated things. Religion, being created by humans is inherently flawed and we never stop tinkering with it, usually for our own desires.

The only drama involving existing gods that I imagine being interesting (me personally) is when the characters doubt them, want to avoid doing their will, or have angered them. Integral to that is misunderstanding or disobeying them in some way. My .02 take it or leave it.

The split - any ideas what it could have been over?

Power, jealousy?

What kind of ritual worship would a goddess like Neta require?

Regular prayers in the daylight seem appropriate. Being associated with darkness, nighttime seems like the right time for her primary service. Since her elements are air and water, these should be included. Water has many obvious ways to be used in ceremony: baptism, pouring, submerging, bathing in a river or sacred spring. What comes to mind for air are reed instruments, wind chimes, smoke from incense, burnt offerings.


What drives a pair of imperfect gods to even create a world?

Power.

Should they gain actual power from the worship they receive?

I like the idea. Each time a prayer is uttered, they grow in power. Built into the fabric of the world are conduits to channel focused "psychic energy" to the goddesses which they consume in some way. You get "their address" by using their name, image, icon, or symbol. In this way the two can compete for power.

Hey, in that case, what kind of power would a god even need?

I can only assume the original issue was with the other - so that one can hold sway over the other.

Should there be other gods? Lesser ones? Greater ones?

Most religions employ go-betweens who are less dangerous to deal with than the gods themselves. What often makes them interesting is that they may have their own goals, so your characters need to take care not to anger the goddesses.

How do you approach religion-building? How does/do your god/gods operate in your world? What makes your fictional god or gods tick?

I've had three approaches.

1. There are none in the modern sense, but there are "spirits" who hold a power beyond what mortals have. Their origin is unknown.
2. They exist only in terms of the religions. There are many, nobody has ever seen one, but some have seen "proof".
3. They are extra-planar creatures of varying strengths, some of these enjoy their sway over mortals, and so demand worship of them. They are "gods" in the sense that they are powerful and strange to us, and we have no other name for them.