Religion in Your World: Believing, Doing, Belonging

[Ireth]

Yay! Does that mean there were non-white humans, hobbits or elves somewhere in Middle Earth too?

(Not insinuating that Tolkien was racist, lol--but, come on. Can we have some people of color as characters too? And yes, I know this is way off topic, so I will quiet down now. Sigh.)

Well, there are the Haradrim, whom I think were based on Arabs as far as their looks... and I think they're in the same category as orcs. Just because we don't see any who aren't enemies, doesn't mean they're all evil.

 

[Nihal]

Yes. Haradrim was a term coined by the people of Gondor to designate the people from any nation located to the south of the city; they were in fact more than one single nation. Do your remember the elephant-like creatures rode by some men in The Two Towers? Yeah, these were the Haradrim riding them.

If I remember it well they were quite unlucky tribes, being dominated by dark lords since the times of Númenor, but that doesn't make them evil, just unlucky. What is unfortunate is Tolkien never exploring their point of view (at least I think he didn't).

 

[Mindfire]

I have Moloch go on to become Set (Egyptian) then Prometheus (this makes more sense in context) and then on to Loki. The book takes place in modern times and he is a business magnate named Malaki Prome.

There's something vaguely Percy Jackson-ish about that. I like it.

 

[Mindfire]

Yes. Haradrim was a term coined by the people of Gondor to designate the people from any nation located to the south of the city; they were in fact more than one single nation. Do your remember the elephant-like creatures rode by some men in The Two Towers? Yeah, these were the Haradrim riding them.

If I remember it well they were quite unlucky tribes, being dominated by dark lords since the times of Númenor, but that doesn't make them evil, just unlucky. What is unfortunate is Tolkien never exploring their point of view (at least I think he didn't).

If I recall correctly, there is a moment when Samwise sees a Haradrim soldier and actually pities him, because he can tell the man doesn't really want to be there fighting someone else's war.

 

[Jabrosky]

I've experimented with evil religions a few times. I base them on a mixture of Judeo-Christianity and Islam, with maybe a few drops of Nazi racialism or European colonialism. I believe the most harmful ideologies, religious or otherwise, are the ones that demand the conquest or domination of certain groups by their followers, so this is in line with my personal beliefs.

 

[wordwalker]

It's good to hear this definition of belonging to religions. Let's keep in mind the other side:

For most of history, religion was an extension of the tribe-- that's how you "belonged" to a faith, period. Good and evil were just as relative; invading the clan next door wasn't "wrong," it was just unwise if it ruined more opportunities for your own people than it created. Monotheism (and some philosophies) changed all that, at least to some degree.

But then, in a fantasy system with real gods, what does that mean? Is there a real god for each tribe, or have the shamans always known that there are only ten gods, and their tribe and the five nearby are under one god's influence-- instant empire? Or do the gods mingle in most societies (Smith god, Hunter god, etc) and how does that interact with human issues? Or, how much does a god keep back and let people interpret His ways?

Lots of things to consider for a world.

 

[skip.knox]

The aspect I liked about Mara's original post was that it caused me to think about how different races might approach religion. It gave me a way to start thinking about how elven religion might be fundamentally different from any and all human religions. Likewise for dwarves, pixies, giants, orken, ogres, trolls, and so on.

Already for dwarves I have "religion" being what humans would think of as quite superficial. It's all about the ritual. You do the right thing and the right time and you and the gods are copacetic. No need for faith, miracles, spirituality, etc. Humans often mistakenly think the gods are not important to dwarves, but that's not quite right. If a dwarf isn't punctilious in the performance of his ritual, then he incurs supernatural disfavor. Do it enough and some sort of retribution follows--in this life, for dwarves have no belief in an after-life. Dwarven religion is highly contractual, and contracts really do matter. As for the spiritual side of life, dwarves find that in their work. That's a whole different topic.

That's only a sketch, worked out over the past few days. I offer it up in part as a thanks to Mara for getting me thinking (re-thinking, really) about the topic.

 

[ThinkerX]

Hmmm...

Religion and Races in my world:

As per the earlier post, the humans in my primary nation (and most of the others) subscribe to a sort of quasi-christianity.

The humans of fallen Agba are polythiests worshipping 'real' deities - but most of those deities are Lovecraftian abominations with agendas of their own. Over time, the priests worshipping these entities come to sympathize far more with the goals of these horrid entities than they do with their fellow humans.

The nomads of the endless southern plains, human and other wise, tend towards ancestor worship combined with appeasing an array of nature spirits (a few of which are Lovecraftian entities).

Elves fairly uniformly regard themselves as spirits trapped in this reality. (Suicide to escape doesn't work). They have to work their way back home, one slow painful step at a time. There are occasionally violent disputes as to the exact path.

Dwarves tend to subscribe to the religion of the humans they dwell among. They do have a craftsman saint of their own in the quasi-christian religion.

Males outnumber females by a hundred to one or more among goblins and hobgoblins. Furthermore, females live two or three times longer than males. Hence female goblins/hobgoblins are treated with great, almost saintly respect in their societies, though they are seldom seen as truly divine. The very rare goblin and hobgoblin mage 'lords' - a literal one in ten thousand, are considered to have a sort of 'inside line' to the spirit world, though they seldom claim true divinity. More of 'special intermediaries'.

The Rachasa 'cat-men' are a created race and they know it. Their mythology includes several variations as to how they were created from the best and most savage of other species to be a race of warriors for a demon god. In the core form, the spirits of dead rachasa act as 'spiritual enforcers' in the afterworld. Other myths include a rebel or redeemer figure who broke the demon-gods control over the rachasa, allowing them independance.

 

[Mara Edgerton]

It's good to hear this definition of belonging to religions. Let's keep in mind the other side:

For most of history, religion was an extension of the tribe-- that's how you "belonged" to a faith, period. . . Monotheism (and some philosophies) changed all that, at least to some degree.

Huh. Not sure Judaism changed the part about belonging--except that a lot of people convert into our tribe. But who knows? Maybe most tribes have ways to convert in or be adopted or what not.

I think we made contributions to moral understanding--but I'd say that about all the big 'world' religions and many smaller, indigenous ones.

 

[Mara Edgerton]

The aspect I liked about Mara's original post was that it caused me to think about how different races might approach religion. It gave me a way to start thinking about how elven religion might be fundamentally different from any and all human religions. Likewise for dwarves, pixies, giants, orken, ogres, trolls, and so on.

Already for dwarves I have "religion" being what humans would think of as quite superficial. It's all about the ritual. You do the right thing and the right time and you and the gods are copacetic. No need for faith, miracles, spirituality, etc. Humans often mistakenly think the gods are not important to dwarves, but that's not quite right. If a dwarf isn't punctilious in the performance of his ritual, then he incurs supernatural disfavor. Do it enough and some sort of retribution follows--in this life, for dwarves have no belief in an after-life. Dwarven religion is highly contractual, and contracts really do matter. As for the spiritual side of life, dwarves find that in their work. That's a whole different topic.

That's only a sketch, worked out over the past few days. I offer it up in part as a thanks to Mara for getting me thinking (re-thinking, really) about the topic.

I like this! I especially like religions that don't focus on an afterlife.

I'd love to know, though, what (in the eyes of the dwarves) the gods take away from these rituals and contracts. Is there any moral dimension to them? Are they acts of remembrance and gratitude? (Think about the Seder in Judaism: we celebrate this Passover meal to reenact and remember when, in our mythos, G-d took us out of slavery in Egypt.) Or do the dwarves see the rituals as necessary to the gods in some way? Will the gods be diminished without them?

Just curious!

 

[skip.knox]

Hm, good question. I give a sketch and Mara starts asking about the leaves on the tree in the background on the left!

The gods probably should take away something from the performance of the rituals. If it's not done properly, then the good hoodoo doesn't communicate properly with the gods (I'm thinking of not having the gods reside in a particular direction, up or down, but rather have them reside in certain places). But if it's done right, what does the god get out of it?

I don't know the answer, off-hand. Or even on-hand. But the angles are interesting. For example, if the god (let's pick one of many) gets something he needs, then the dwarf has a kind of power -- by denying the ritual, he could weaken the god. But if the god doesn't *need* it, then why's it important? Sure, it'd be easy to say he's a wrathful god and the ritual averts the anger, but that's too easy. It might do for one or two gods, but not for all of them. Maybe it really is contractual -- do the right thing and the god showers blessings, fail and suffer wrath. But the blessings would be highly specific and limited. Ordinary Hammer +1. That sort of thing. In that scenario, the god doesn't need anything, but will provide a service if a service is provided for him.

Other angles I'm considering: having one set of gods for males and one for females. Having a large number of gods that operate much like human families, complete with rivalries and vendettas. Not a small pantheon, but more like a whole Italian city-state. Dwarvish affairs could get entangled in that. Or might reflect that (if your faction prospers, then you prosper). I could even have the gods procreate ... and also die.

It's all still new. As with other aspects of my world, I like to make lots of different sketches, but I don't really settle on something until I start writing, then I settle only those bits that need settling to make the story work. I have to proceed carefully because once I decide something is true, it must remain true for the whole two thousand years of the world's story line. Sort of like proceeding from the cartoon to the actual fresco!

 

[Ireth]

Maybe it really is contractual -- do the right thing and the god showers blessings, fail and suffer wrath.

Sounds a lot like Judaism. That'd be an interesting angle to pursue.

Other angles I'm considering: having one set of gods for males and one for females. Having a large number of gods that operate much like human families, complete with rivalries and vendettas. Not a small pantheon, but more like a whole Italian city-state. Dwarvish affairs could get entangled in that. Or might reflect that (if your faction prospers, then you prosper). I could even have the gods procreate ... and also die.

The male/female sets of gods is an interesting concept; care to give a bit more detail of what you had in mind for that?

The big god-family idea makes me think of the Greco-Roman gods, with all their twisted relationships and petty squabbles over who had sex with whom, etc. Personally, I'd steer clear of having the gods be too much like the people who worship them; one of the big issues with the G-R pantheon was that they were subject to plenty of human vices, with predictably devastating results, and it was mostly mortals who got hurt because of it.

 

[skip.knox]

I love how you think I have anything in mind. I'm making this up as I go!

But, one possibility would be to have it that dwarves can put magic into their work (right now, I have dwarves able to enchant items but not to cast spells) only by invoking the correct god. This would mean not only the right one as far as the guild is concerned but also one that is gender correct. Maybe female magic only works under ground, or male magic only works in specific places. Or, though this is one I am toying with for human magic, only works at certain times of the year. I wasn't after anything particularly profound--more in the nature of patron saints. Could do it with age, too. This god is for children, but they move on to other gods as they grow up.

As for the family thing, I still rather like it. The Greek pantheon was too small. I'm talking a few hundred gods, with factions, and with greater and lesser powers within that.

Overall, my notion is that the relationship with the gods is much closer and practical, like a kind of kinship. Not spiritual as it is with Western monotheism--that's a different kind of closeness--but pragmatic, daily, and maybe a little argumentative.

One other aspect about the gods in general in Altearth. In tribal religions in RealEarth, the gods of your tribe exist and the gods of my tribe exist, but we each regard the other's gods as pretty much irrelevant. Sort of like the laws of different countries. So it is with the gods of Altearth. Human gods and dwarven gods both exist, but they are irrelevant to each other and do not in any sense inhabit the same space. The religious spheres simply do not intersect.

The one exception could be with orks. This race is monotheistic and sometimes evangelical. Certainly whenever they conquer a people, that people is required to abandon their own gods. As far as orks are concerned, all gods of other peoples are false gods that must be conquered even as orks conquer the peoples themselves.

I'm still working on pixies, drow, mermen, and ogres. I think all my other races will be non-sentient. Gotta draw the line somewhere!

BTW, it's fun, when in world-building mode, do make similar speculations in the realms of economics, political organization, social structures, and culture (do orks create art?). In none of these do I intend to paint the picture fully, but getting the basic principles in place is helpful and can contribute to story-making in unexpected ways.

I have to thank you again, Mara, for that original post!

-= Skip =-

 

[Gurkhal]

Very interesting first post on an issue that is very present in most fantasy settings.

 

[Chessie]

Wow, this thread is amazing, thank you Mara!

I'm not a religious person--but spiritual, yes. So when creating the belief system for my world, I played with several systems of belief before I settled on a monotheistic idea, where the deity worshiped is referred to simply as the 'Almighty'. There are clans that believe in their own deities, but there is one religion spread across the land that most people worship, including my main character's family.

I chose to do this because my main character avoids religion at all costs, and her relationship with the 'Almighty' is...estranged. I felt this was appropriate to the story being told and religion/spirituality isn't the focus of what's going on. I didn't want to develop an elaborate belief system I will never use in my story. Personally...ahem...I think religion belongs out of fantasy. But that's just me.

 

[Abbas-Al-Morim]

Logged in to say thank you for that brilliant op. It's a different and unique approach to religions and I can't wait to experiment with it.

 

[Mara Edgerton]

Logged in to say thank you for that brilliant op. It's a different and unique approach to religions and I can't wait to experiment with it.

Aw! Thanks. My pleasure.