Royal titles?

[Jess A]

Yes perhaps it is a matter of choice for Robin Hobb. She does have characters referring to a character in the way you mention: "Come here, fitz!" That later becomes his name (hence capitalised), but at the start, it is other people referring to him as a bastard, a 'fitz', similar to "Come here, boy!"

There will always be confusion in some areas of grammar and always something to learn. It is an interesting topic nonetheless. Proper nouns make perfect sense to me with regards to place names and in most cases, titles and forms of address. It is just inconsistency which has confused me. I don't want to drown my works with too many capitals if not necessary, but I have always favoured using capitals for 'Prince' and 'Duke' and 'King' as it sounds correct to me.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

The fact that some authors are inconsistent does not mean they are right (or wrong), but merely that they made a choice to write how they wanted to. I can only say what is grammatically correct, and in the sentence: "Yes, My Prince, I saddled your horse." It is correct to capitalize the "my" because it is a substitute for his name. Would it also be true if I said, "Go on, Ugly, fetch me my horse."? Well I should think it would be the same. I am using a word to stand in for someone's name. I haven't seen many examples of this, but if anyone can point us to a source, I would be very interested in the answer to that.

In my NIP I'm choosing not to capitalize "my lord" or "my lady" or "m'lord" or "m'lady" at any point, mostly because I think it looks extremely weird and distracting to do so. Titles are only capitalized as part of a proper name (e.g. the word "princess" would only be capitalized if you were using the person's name, as in "That is Princess Taya" or "Hello, Princess Taya" but not "That is the princess" or "Hello, princess" or even "Yes, your highness"). It's internally consistent.

Capitalizing "m'lord" is impossible to make not look weird (I tried), and it would be even weirder to not capitalize "m'lord" but to capitalize "My Lord."

In general, I wouldn't capitalize "Ugly" in your example unless that was a nickname for the person. Imagine if instead of "ugly" you called him "fatass" or "stupid" or "moron." It would seem really odd to me to capitalize any of those. Words that substitute for someone's name don't always need to be capitalized (e.g. "him").

 

[Caged Maiden]

"Yes, Your Highness," is correct. Any honorific form of address is capitalized in its entirety because it becomes a proper noun.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

GRRM doesn't seem to quite agree; he capitalizes "Your Grace" in his books but not "my lady" or "my lord." I'm going to stick with what I've got.

 

[Jess A]

Back to titles.

How do you refer to a Duke when you introduce him to someone else? I know 'His Grace' and 'Your Grace'. I noted on that site posted by Caged Maiden:

Francis Russell, the Earl of Bedford can be called Lord Bedford.

(Life in Elizabethan England 13: Titles and Forms of Address)

How would one refer to the Duke of Norfolk, for example? I understand 'His Grace the Duke of Norfolk'. But I have heard, say, a King refer to that specific Duke simply as 'Norfolk' in general conversation when talking to the Duke "Norfolk, I have a proposition". Some novels have 'Duke (first name)', perhaps by their own preference. Or 'Lord (first name or surname)', Duke of (place).

Sometimes I think authors play with this system to their own liking to simplify reading for their audience. Looking at Feist for example, reading 'Duke Borric' is simpler than 'Duke of Crydee' (etc) as readers may quickly forget the person's first name. Anyone find this acceptable/unacceptable? I suppose few readers would care about the specifics.

 

[Graylorne]

A nobleman could call the Duke of Norfolk just Norfolk, or just Duke; formally my Lord Duke.

He could call an earl just Bedford, or formally lord Bedford, or call him Francis, if a friend.

If you said Lord John, you'd be talking about a younger son, or a brother. Lord John Hastings, brother to the Earl of Bedford. For Bedford is the title of the head of the house, not the family name (Hastings). And here this Lord is a courtesy title.

When he talks of the Duke, he'd probably say Norfolk, Bedford or, if it's about the brother, John Hastings.

A commoner would say Your Grace or My Lord.

I'm perfectly fine with Duke Borric, the Kingdom of the Isles isn't very strong on protocol.

 

[Jess A]

A nobleman could call the Duke of Norfolk just Norfolk, or just Duke; formally my Lord Duke.

He could call an earl just Bedford, or formally lord Bedford, or call him Francis, if a friend.

If you said Lord John, you'd be talking about a younger son, or a brother. Lord John Hastings, brother to the Earl of Bedford. For Bedford is the title of the head of the house, not the family name (Hastings). And here this Lord is a courtesy title.

When he talks of the Duke, he'd probably say Norfolk, Bedford or, if it's about the brother, John Hastings.

A commoner would say Your Grace or My Lord.

Thank you - this makes perfect sense and glues together the little bits of fractured knowledge running about my brain.

I'm perfectly fine with Duke Borric, the Kingdom of the Isles isn't very strong on protocol.

Heh that is a truth. I suppose the point here is that in an area where protocol is important, it would be a different story.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I guess whatever you used as honorific titles, whether Your Excellency, My Lord, His Grace, The Right Honorable Lord Chancellor, or whatever, your imagination can be your guide in a fantasy novel.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

With these kinds of issues I've always felt that consistency is the key. Keeping the reader from noticing the writing is more important to me than following proper etiquette.

Plus, like CM just said, it's a fantasy world for most of us. How the characters address each other is ultimately the authors choice.

The only exception to this that I can think of would be in writing a historical fantasy, like Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell.

 

[Graylorne]

Of course, it's just that as with so many other things, it's handy to have a basic idea of what you're writing. That goes for titles as well as for ships, blacksmithing or horses.

 

[Zophos]

Consistency is the key and you can do it however you like. Generally, the grammatically correct way to do it in most languages is determined by the definite or indefinite article that precedes the name, even if it is dropped. The Lord of Cornwall v. a lord of Cornwall. It may also depend on the point of view of your speaker.

You can also make up your own rules as these are generally linguistic, cultural and philologic rules of syntax, and you most likely made up all three of those elements for your novel. An example would be putting a period outside a quotation mark or capitalizing racial, lineal, regional, directional or even colloquial adjectives and adverbs.

A good example of this from my writing is that I capitalize "god" and "man" when I am referring to the plural form of those two common nouns. "When God gave Man breath." "When Man has forsaken himself." "When a god dallies with Man."

... "But, my lord sent me to find it."
....

Case in point of point of view being important. If the speaker were speaking to his lord, it could be "But, My Lord sent me to find it." If the speaker were speaking to someone else, it could be as above.

...However, seasons are never capitalized unless personified eg. spring is my favorite season. It was the face of Summer, her radiant locks of golden grain swaying in the wind.....

Excellent point and a frequent mistake.

 

[Jess A]

I agree with consistency. But I like to first learn real-world examples where possible and then modify where necessary to suit the book (and the reader). Sometimes the various styles of address are a confusing mouthful and I don't want to confuse my readers, but I would like to maintain at least some sense of authenticity, even if just a touch.

Zophos: Ah. Definite and indefinite article. That is what I was trying to refer to before. A specific 'Lord' and any 'lord'.

 

[ALB2012]

Nvm. Someone else said what I was going too and after I wrote it I discovered it was gibberish.
I know I struggled with whether it should be My Lord, my Lord or my lord in my own books.