Continuing from the other thread:
1. Although the post title makes this sound like a binary issue, it isn't of course. There is a spectrum here.
2. As FifthView pointed out, the word "organic" is a bit fuzzy. As an attempt at clarification about what I mean, I'm thinking of almost an instinctual approach to any given story, based on the author's own vision of how the story can be told. I don't mean "instinctual" to imply that this is something one is born with or else lacks. It is certainly a learned skill. It's a process in which the story flows at some level apart from the formal analysis of much of the minutiae of the rules.
3. An organic process doesn't preclude application of rules-based methodology, because after an organic writing process the editing process can include such considerations, but whether at the point of writing or editing my question, below, is whether this is always a good idea.
4. The comments here are not an indictment of any approach to writing. I enjoy thrillers, for example, and that's the genre I identify most with many of the rules I read about writing, whether from books on how to write best-selling fiction, or the types of discussions writers have in forums. Those are good books, and the techniques can be very effective. I enjoy them. But I don't want all books to be like them.
The discussion has me thinking of three books as examples. I recently re-read The Savage Detectives, by Roberto Bolano. The other two examples are David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest and Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. I read the DFW novel some time ago, so if my memory is hazier on that one someone can correct me.
I don't think the books above, which are all well-received critically though none of them are what I would consider "commercial fiction" per se, adhere to a lot of the rules for writing or structuring novels that are often discussed among writers. Bolano's protagonist tends to get introspective, and the author engages in asides to indulge the character. Early on, these work to establish character, but as the book progresses they're really not much more than expressions of the author's individual style. I don't know that I'd say he uses microtensions on every page, for example (depending on how broadly one defines microtensions). He also "tells" a lot. DFW also engages in asides that don't really push the story itself forward much, if at all. They're witty and interesting asides, but they're very much the author pushing into the work and interrupting the story to some degree to inject a flavor of himself into the work. They're very much voice and style first, with other considerations secondary. And Peake, of course, is wordy and engages in indulgent descriptive paragraphs and other asides that contribute to the flavor and distinctiveness of the work. They're interesting. The writing is fascinating to read, in my view. But they're not the sorts of things that align themselves with a rules-based approach. I suspect if any of these authors were around today, as unknowns, and submitted their work for critique in a forum, they'd get a lot of "You can't do that because of rule X."
Each of the books above could be rewritten to conform with a lot of the rules that inform highly commercial fiction, but of course the works would be destroyed by this. They wouldn't exist--something else would be in their place.
Discussions of subject matter like MRUs, microtensions, and various other informal rules to writing fiction are valuable because they add tools to the writer's toolbox. But in the end they're just tools--the writer has to be able to determine when and if to use them, and those determinations seem to me to be based in large part on the author's artistic vision of the work, and on what the author considers the purpose of the work. If the authors is writing a fast, summertime beach read, it seems to me that the techniques discussed are a lot more relevant than if you're Mervyn Peake writing Titus Groan.
One question, then, is how such advice should be offered to new writers and in what sort of context, if any, should be built around the advice. I run into this with writers in my in-person critique group, where we have some writers in the very early stages of the craft. There are places where those writers appear to be trying to accomplish a result that I think would be helped by rule x, y, or z, and so I offer the advice as a possibility to consider for their next edit. We have one writer in particular who has a fairly distinctive style and is writing more in the vein of literary fiction. The problem he has right now is that his writing, voice, and approach to story is still quite rough, so that end product isn't nearly as effective as it could be. I would hate, however, to steer him heavily into rules-based thinking because the most promising core of what he's doing right now flies in the face of a lot of that, and if he edited his work to conform to such rules I think it would be the worse for it.
Finally, as clarification on the word "generic." I am using it simply in contract to an author with a distinctive voice and style. Much highly commercial fiction is generic in terms of voice. I like the books, but you could switch author X with author Y and no one would be the wiser. It seems to me the more individual authors are pushed toward utilizing the same rules, the same approaches, the same admonitions when it comes to revising their work and how sentences, scenes, and the like should be structured and worded, the more you push similarity as opposed to differences. It's unavoidable. The more authors adhere strictly to the same set of precepts, the more similar their work will be. Again, not necessarily a bad thing depending on what the authors are trying to accomplish, but not necessarily a good thing either, particularly when you consider the diversity of potential in fiction.
I think that covers the gist of my viewpoint. I'm sure I'll want to clarify or perhaps reconsider based on opposing viewpoints.
1. Although the post title makes this sound like a binary issue, it isn't of course. There is a spectrum here.
2. As FifthView pointed out, the word "organic" is a bit fuzzy. As an attempt at clarification about what I mean, I'm thinking of almost an instinctual approach to any given story, based on the author's own vision of how the story can be told. I don't mean "instinctual" to imply that this is something one is born with or else lacks. It is certainly a learned skill. It's a process in which the story flows at some level apart from the formal analysis of much of the minutiae of the rules.
3. An organic process doesn't preclude application of rules-based methodology, because after an organic writing process the editing process can include such considerations, but whether at the point of writing or editing my question, below, is whether this is always a good idea.
4. The comments here are not an indictment of any approach to writing. I enjoy thrillers, for example, and that's the genre I identify most with many of the rules I read about writing, whether from books on how to write best-selling fiction, or the types of discussions writers have in forums. Those are good books, and the techniques can be very effective. I enjoy them. But I don't want all books to be like them.
The discussion has me thinking of three books as examples. I recently re-read The Savage Detectives, by Roberto Bolano. The other two examples are David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest and Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. I read the DFW novel some time ago, so if my memory is hazier on that one someone can correct me.
I don't think the books above, which are all well-received critically though none of them are what I would consider "commercial fiction" per se, adhere to a lot of the rules for writing or structuring novels that are often discussed among writers. Bolano's protagonist tends to get introspective, and the author engages in asides to indulge the character. Early on, these work to establish character, but as the book progresses they're really not much more than expressions of the author's individual style. I don't know that I'd say he uses microtensions on every page, for example (depending on how broadly one defines microtensions). He also "tells" a lot. DFW also engages in asides that don't really push the story itself forward much, if at all. They're witty and interesting asides, but they're very much the author pushing into the work and interrupting the story to some degree to inject a flavor of himself into the work. They're very much voice and style first, with other considerations secondary. And Peake, of course, is wordy and engages in indulgent descriptive paragraphs and other asides that contribute to the flavor and distinctiveness of the work. They're interesting. The writing is fascinating to read, in my view. But they're not the sorts of things that align themselves with a rules-based approach. I suspect if any of these authors were around today, as unknowns, and submitted their work for critique in a forum, they'd get a lot of "You can't do that because of rule X."
Each of the books above could be rewritten to conform with a lot of the rules that inform highly commercial fiction, but of course the works would be destroyed by this. They wouldn't exist--something else would be in their place.
Discussions of subject matter like MRUs, microtensions, and various other informal rules to writing fiction are valuable because they add tools to the writer's toolbox. But in the end they're just tools--the writer has to be able to determine when and if to use them, and those determinations seem to me to be based in large part on the author's artistic vision of the work, and on what the author considers the purpose of the work. If the authors is writing a fast, summertime beach read, it seems to me that the techniques discussed are a lot more relevant than if you're Mervyn Peake writing Titus Groan.
One question, then, is how such advice should be offered to new writers and in what sort of context, if any, should be built around the advice. I run into this with writers in my in-person critique group, where we have some writers in the very early stages of the craft. There are places where those writers appear to be trying to accomplish a result that I think would be helped by rule x, y, or z, and so I offer the advice as a possibility to consider for their next edit. We have one writer in particular who has a fairly distinctive style and is writing more in the vein of literary fiction. The problem he has right now is that his writing, voice, and approach to story is still quite rough, so that end product isn't nearly as effective as it could be. I would hate, however, to steer him heavily into rules-based thinking because the most promising core of what he's doing right now flies in the face of a lot of that, and if he edited his work to conform to such rules I think it would be the worse for it.
Finally, as clarification on the word "generic." I am using it simply in contract to an author with a distinctive voice and style. Much highly commercial fiction is generic in terms of voice. I like the books, but you could switch author X with author Y and no one would be the wiser. It seems to me the more individual authors are pushed toward utilizing the same rules, the same approaches, the same admonitions when it comes to revising their work and how sentences, scenes, and the like should be structured and worded, the more you push similarity as opposed to differences. It's unavoidable. The more authors adhere strictly to the same set of precepts, the more similar their work will be. Again, not necessarily a bad thing depending on what the authors are trying to accomplish, but not necessarily a good thing either, particularly when you consider the diversity of potential in fiction.
I think that covers the gist of my viewpoint. I'm sure I'll want to clarify or perhaps reconsider based on opposing viewpoints.