- Thread starter
- #21
Androxine Vortex
Archmage
Oh for a moment I thought you were Devor. You both have the same avatar. This could cause much confusion in the future...
-
Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!
Telling Time
- Thread starter Androxine Vortex
- Start date
Oh for a moment I thought you were Devor. You both have the same avatar. This could cause much confusion in the future...
Ghost
Inkling
I think the colorful sky is good for time-keeping, but making one set of colors for day and the other for night doesn't make sense to me. Why not just stick with day and night if the colors represent day and night?
This is just my opinion, but I think it would be better to have different ways of organizing how people and businesses run. Some cultures are less strict about business hours and vacations. You might go to your favorite bakery and find that the baker went to Brazil for the month. I could see a society developing a very relaxed attitude about time. Productivity might be viewed differently under an unchanging sun. Maybe you're gambling whenever you go to your favorite vendor. Maybe you're not sure if your friend will meet you during the right color. People might not feel 8 hours of sleep was necessary. They might split it up. Maybe the sun affects their cycles so they take several naps instead. It doesn't have to be so rigid.
You could still develop time-keeping devices, but I imagine they'd be very different. I'm not sure how you'd show the passage of longer periods of time like years. It could be related to how long it takes something to happen (a tree or animal to mature? the moon to change positions?), it could have cultural significance, or it may not even be important.
I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. I agree with the others that you should consider the ramifications. I'm assuming plants wouldn't have seasonal growing cycles. Maybe a certain flower blossoms during purple time. Animals probably wouldn't have regular breeding seasons. Maybe it's a free for all or there's something else affecting the environment, like the rate world's spinning (fast season/slow season). Since you're making it clear that this world doesn't have the same set of rules, I don't mind that things couldn't exist in real life. I just don't like the idea of schedules and timekeeping being essentially the same as it is here in spite of the constant sun.
This is just my opinion, but I think it would be better to have different ways of organizing how people and businesses run. Some cultures are less strict about business hours and vacations. You might go to your favorite bakery and find that the baker went to Brazil for the month. I could see a society developing a very relaxed attitude about time. Productivity might be viewed differently under an unchanging sun. Maybe you're gambling whenever you go to your favorite vendor. Maybe you're not sure if your friend will meet you during the right color. People might not feel 8 hours of sleep was necessary. They might split it up. Maybe the sun affects their cycles so they take several naps instead. It doesn't have to be so rigid.
You could still develop time-keeping devices, but I imagine they'd be very different. I'm not sure how you'd show the passage of longer periods of time like years. It could be related to how long it takes something to happen (a tree or animal to mature? the moon to change positions?), it could have cultural significance, or it may not even be important.
I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. I agree with the others that you should consider the ramifications. I'm assuming plants wouldn't have seasonal growing cycles. Maybe a certain flower blossoms during purple time. Animals probably wouldn't have regular breeding seasons. Maybe it's a free for all or there's something else affecting the environment, like the rate world's spinning (fast season/slow season). Since you're making it clear that this world doesn't have the same set of rules, I don't mind that things couldn't exist in real life. I just don't like the idea of schedules and timekeeping being essentially the same as it is here in spite of the constant sun.
grahamguitarman
Sage
I agree that having day and night colours defeats the point. why say you are not going to have day and night then set in place exactly that?
I think the idea of a world that is in permanent daylight is actually a very interesting concept, and that you should try to explore the impact of that on civilisation, rather than try to alter it to fit our idea of what a civilisation should be!
In one of my stories there is a location where the island is in permanent daylight for six months followed by six months of night. They have clocks to measure time, but that is because they need to be in sync with the rest of the world which is in normal time.
In your world I suspect there would be a completely different perception of time, concepts such as today, tomorrow, noon and night would not exist (unless you implement the darker phase you described) This re-imagining of time would for me be a huge opportunity for writing whole new ideas and concepts.
Would they even care about the concept of time like we do? or would they simply go to sleep when they are tired and eat when they are hungry. (would they even need sleep?)
Just a thought, if the sun is permanently suspended above your world, then it would have to be very weak to prevent everyone from being burned alive (unless you want a 'Dune' type culture). If the sun is fairly weak, then at the horizon maybe the light isn't strong enough to block out the stars beyond. I'm thinking here of a situation where directly above you have a blue sky with a weak sun, which then fades into a darker blue-purple at the horizon with stars and planets visible in a band that wraps all around the horizon.
You would then have the basis for a whole new type of astronomy based on the phenomenom of that permanent band of dark sky.
I think the idea of a world that is in permanent daylight is actually a very interesting concept, and that you should try to explore the impact of that on civilisation, rather than try to alter it to fit our idea of what a civilisation should be!
In one of my stories there is a location where the island is in permanent daylight for six months followed by six months of night. They have clocks to measure time, but that is because they need to be in sync with the rest of the world which is in normal time.
In your world I suspect there would be a completely different perception of time, concepts such as today, tomorrow, noon and night would not exist (unless you implement the darker phase you described) This re-imagining of time would for me be a huge opportunity for writing whole new ideas and concepts.
Would they even care about the concept of time like we do? or would they simply go to sleep when they are tired and eat when they are hungry. (would they even need sleep?)
Just a thought, if the sun is permanently suspended above your world, then it would have to be very weak to prevent everyone from being burned alive (unless you want a 'Dune' type culture). If the sun is fairly weak, then at the horizon maybe the light isn't strong enough to block out the stars beyond. I'm thinking here of a situation where directly above you have a blue sky with a weak sun, which then fades into a darker blue-purple at the horizon with stars and planets visible in a band that wraps all around the horizon.
You would then have the basis for a whole new type of astronomy based on the phenomenom of that permanent band of dark sky.
SeverinR
Vala
One thought I had was maybe looking at history of Eskimos.
They lived in parts with long term day, and long term nights. (Land of the midnight sun)
How did they tell time during the long periods of light and dark.
Metronome was an interesting idea, does a larger metronome move at the same pace as the smaller?
The spinning of the world like an LP, would also offer a way of tracking time. Depending on the speed of the spin, one rotation could be a day. Might need to think of how spinning like a disk would affect people, rather then rotation like a ball.
Water clock, sand clock would work, the time it takes for a certain amount of ____, to drop into the lower chamber would mark time, a large one could be equivalent to a day. Business would probably be built around it, so the store keepers could watch time. (know when to close, etc)
In more primative times, time was not as important, but people have to rest, and if no measure to set limits, lazy people could "rest" longer then normal, and more active would work longer and both would get the same "pay". Seconds and even minutes tend to be less important, but hours and days would still be.
Without a ball world, temp would probably remain fairly stable, except for weather(rain) when the sun is blocked by clouds. LP rotation would offer a reason for weather to move around, unmoving world would still have rain like a biosphere, moisture builds up in the sky blocking out the sun until it rains down on society, so rain would be cyclic, and might offer a time frame too.
Candle marks might work, the time it takes for a candle to burn down so much, but different types and consistancy of wax would have to be dealt with. Maybe a ministry of time to make the proper width candle to allow for the different waxes to still burn at the same rate.
They lived in parts with long term day, and long term nights. (Land of the midnight sun)
How did they tell time during the long periods of light and dark.
Metronome was an interesting idea, does a larger metronome move at the same pace as the smaller?
The spinning of the world like an LP, would also offer a way of tracking time. Depending on the speed of the spin, one rotation could be a day. Might need to think of how spinning like a disk would affect people, rather then rotation like a ball.
Water clock, sand clock would work, the time it takes for a certain amount of ____, to drop into the lower chamber would mark time, a large one could be equivalent to a day. Business would probably be built around it, so the store keepers could watch time. (know when to close, etc)
In more primative times, time was not as important, but people have to rest, and if no measure to set limits, lazy people could "rest" longer then normal, and more active would work longer and both would get the same "pay". Seconds and even minutes tend to be less important, but hours and days would still be.
Without a ball world, temp would probably remain fairly stable, except for weather(rain) when the sun is blocked by clouds. LP rotation would offer a reason for weather to move around, unmoving world would still have rain like a biosphere, moisture builds up in the sky blocking out the sun until it rains down on society, so rain would be cyclic, and might offer a time frame too.
Candle marks might work, the time it takes for a candle to burn down so much, but different types and consistancy of wax would have to be dealt with. Maybe a ministry of time to make the proper width candle to allow for the different waxes to still burn at the same rate.
Benjamin Clayborne
Auror
Metronomes move based on the position of the weight on the needle. Move it up, and the metronome moves slower. You could make two metronomes of different sizes oscillate at the same frequency just by putting the weights in appropriate positions.
Ghost
Inkling
Ah, that's awesome! I could imagine a character getting irritated that she got stuck in the pre-rain traffic rush. Or if the cycle lasts a while, rainy season could be like winter with people staying indoors, and the dry season starts the new year.
Butterfly
Auror
How about a huge hour-glass on top of a tower - like a clock tower - bells chiming away to mark the passing of a time period be it 24 hours, 12 hours, etc, could be turned and chimed mechanically, magically, manually.
But this world, where it is always day makes me think of that planet in Pitch Black, with two suns, as one set the other would rise so it was always day, until they were aligned and eclipsed by other planets causing weeks of endless darkness. That's when all the monsters came out to play!!!
But this world, where it is always day makes me think of that planet in Pitch Black, with two suns, as one set the other would rise so it was always day, until they were aligned and eclipsed by other planets causing weeks of endless darkness. That's when all the monsters came out to play!!!
- Thread starter
- #28
Androxine Vortex
Archmage
It's hard to come up with a system for this because well obviously we have no experience to write about this. I can't say, "I remember that time the sun didn't go down for a year." I do not want people to just have an unorganized time system and "nap when they feel like it" I think for this new system it needs to be more organized than that.
I am trying to build a world that is very different from our own. Never ending day, the world is flat, I didn't mention this before but there isn't any winter. Now I know this setting would be impossible but in my world, it is created by Gods and Divine beings. They shape creation and existence to their view and their word is law. All of the Gods in my novel are what the people call "Star Gods" or the Celestial Children. Although there is never ending day, the sky is a riot of wild colors and the constellations of the Gods and heaven burn bright. So even though there is day and never night, the Stars are always there.
The Gods wage war against each other to claim the Sun Throne as their own and become the dominant deity of heaven and earth. Since stars and the sky have a big impact in my setting, the priests of these Gods have spells and rituals to move the sky and stars above them. So by worshipping their patron God and using sorcery to alter the stars positions, they are able to move the stars of their Gods to be eclipsed under the sun. So let's say people in a certain area have a drought. They will pray to their God of Fertility and so when his star is in alignment with the Sun, then his powers will be strengthened and rain will come.
I don't plan on going into hyper-specific detail on how the sun and day affects every single thing, but at the same time I am not trying to be cliche or lazy by saying, "It's divine and unfathomalbe." While technically it is, this world by our laws can not exist. So the reader has to keep in mind that you would have to view this world through different laws of physics, laws that would be impossible to rationally explain and prove because how would we prove them? We only have our view of reality and physics so to go through and explain the why and how of every aspect and detail would be impossible and besides the point. I just want the reader to feel and know that they are in totally different world, in time, space, and understanding.
I think I like the idea of using devices such as hourglasses and things like that. I have also considered using the actual colors of the sky to tell time. If the same cycle of colors occur and do not change duration, then perhaps they can develope a time system based on the color. Maybe somthing like There are 6 colors in the primary color wheel. 24 hours in a day. 24 divided by 6 is 4. So each color could have 4 "hours" before changing to the next color, and each one of those 4 of a specific color will have a different tint or shade. So the "warm" colors would be like day while the "cooler" colors are like night. Something like this would be a "time chart" of a day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RGV_color_wheel_1908.png
What are your thoughts on this? I am taking all of your thoughts and suggestions, but I really would like to stick with the "color-change" idea I have.
I am trying to build a world that is very different from our own. Never ending day, the world is flat, I didn't mention this before but there isn't any winter. Now I know this setting would be impossible but in my world, it is created by Gods and Divine beings. They shape creation and existence to their view and their word is law. All of the Gods in my novel are what the people call "Star Gods" or the Celestial Children. Although there is never ending day, the sky is a riot of wild colors and the constellations of the Gods and heaven burn bright. So even though there is day and never night, the Stars are always there.
The Gods wage war against each other to claim the Sun Throne as their own and become the dominant deity of heaven and earth. Since stars and the sky have a big impact in my setting, the priests of these Gods have spells and rituals to move the sky and stars above them. So by worshipping their patron God and using sorcery to alter the stars positions, they are able to move the stars of their Gods to be eclipsed under the sun. So let's say people in a certain area have a drought. They will pray to their God of Fertility and so when his star is in alignment with the Sun, then his powers will be strengthened and rain will come.
I don't plan on going into hyper-specific detail on how the sun and day affects every single thing, but at the same time I am not trying to be cliche or lazy by saying, "It's divine and unfathomalbe." While technically it is, this world by our laws can not exist. So the reader has to keep in mind that you would have to view this world through different laws of physics, laws that would be impossible to rationally explain and prove because how would we prove them? We only have our view of reality and physics so to go through and explain the why and how of every aspect and detail would be impossible and besides the point. I just want the reader to feel and know that they are in totally different world, in time, space, and understanding.
I think I like the idea of using devices such as hourglasses and things like that. I have also considered using the actual colors of the sky to tell time. If the same cycle of colors occur and do not change duration, then perhaps they can develope a time system based on the color. Maybe somthing like There are 6 colors in the primary color wheel. 24 hours in a day. 24 divided by 6 is 4. So each color could have 4 "hours" before changing to the next color, and each one of those 4 of a specific color will have a different tint or shade. So the "warm" colors would be like day while the "cooler" colors are like night. Something like this would be a "time chart" of a day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RGV_color_wheel_1908.png
What are your thoughts on this? I am taking all of your thoughts and suggestions, but I really would like to stick with the "color-change" idea I have.
Last edited:
Drakhov
Minstrel
The concept of time is an artificial construct, on our world based on the relative position of our sun to us - dawn is when it appears above one horizon, at noon it's directly overhead (at least on the equator) and dusk is when it dissapears on the opposite horizon - we rationalized the passage of time between these events based on the sun's 'passage' across the sky and invented seconds, minutes and hours.
On your disc-shaped (you said flat and i think that's been interpreted here to mean disc-shaped) world, the sun's position is constant - directly overhead. But if you think about it that's only true for the people who live at the centre of the disc - the further away from the centre (or the closer to the 'edge') you are then the sun's relative position changes. I think though it would still be in the same constant relative position (any astronomers or astrophysicysts (is that a word?) in who can put me straight on that?) so you can't use the sun's position as a marker as we do on Earth. So if you're talking about how to mark the passage of time, and what 'time' it is where you are, then you would probably have to take that into account also.
There must be some cosmic or meteorological phenomenon that causes your world's sky to change colour, and to do so in such a regular way it can be used to mark time. Your culture would have to have a pretty nuanced perception of colour to use this for accurate time keeping though, but could be an interesting way to mark units of time - tones, shades and spectrals? So a 'spectral' is marked when the sky's color changes from, say, Bright Yellow, to Emerald Green, with the 'shades' being the smaller divisions of the 'spectra', and 'tones' being the divisions of the 'shades'.
If you're set on the changing sky to denote the time then it probably doesn't matter, but if for example your world doesn't spin on a completely flat plane, like a record on a turntable, but 'rocks' on it's pivot? This way you could use a kind of sundial, only instead of the angle of the gnomon's shadow indicating the time, it's the length of the shadow denoting the hour, and whether the shadow is 'centrewise' or 'edgewise' to denote 'morning' and 'evening'. Others here have suggested using other celestial objects as reference points, so that as the world spins the 'hour' is marked when a pointer aligns with the object.
On your disc-shaped (you said flat and i think that's been interpreted here to mean disc-shaped) world, the sun's position is constant - directly overhead. But if you think about it that's only true for the people who live at the centre of the disc - the further away from the centre (or the closer to the 'edge') you are then the sun's relative position changes. I think though it would still be in the same constant relative position (any astronomers or astrophysicysts (is that a word?) in who can put me straight on that?) so you can't use the sun's position as a marker as we do on Earth. So if you're talking about how to mark the passage of time, and what 'time' it is where you are, then you would probably have to take that into account also.
There must be some cosmic or meteorological phenomenon that causes your world's sky to change colour, and to do so in such a regular way it can be used to mark time. Your culture would have to have a pretty nuanced perception of colour to use this for accurate time keeping though, but could be an interesting way to mark units of time - tones, shades and spectrals? So a 'spectral' is marked when the sky's color changes from, say, Bright Yellow, to Emerald Green, with the 'shades' being the smaller divisions of the 'spectra', and 'tones' being the divisions of the 'shades'.
If you're set on the changing sky to denote the time then it probably doesn't matter, but if for example your world doesn't spin on a completely flat plane, like a record on a turntable, but 'rocks' on it's pivot? This way you could use a kind of sundial, only instead of the angle of the gnomon's shadow indicating the time, it's the length of the shadow denoting the hour, and whether the shadow is 'centrewise' or 'edgewise' to denote 'morning' and 'evening'. Others here have suggested using other celestial objects as reference points, so that as the world spins the 'hour' is marked when a pointer aligns with the object.