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The first draft of anything is sh**

C Hollis

Troubadour
Seven words from Hemingway. Simple, to the point.

I believe those words, and I question those who argue against them. The question that comes to mind: If it's not ****, then you publish it without editing, right?

My rough draft is a brain purge. I just type up words as the characters speak. I don't back up to change words, and my dictionary, thesaurus, and style guide gather dust for 150 days during the purge. Some argue that stifling that flow leads to a stilted, sterile final product. I don't know, never tried it.

Regardless, my form of writing that first draft lends truth to Hemingway's words. I just look back at the first draft of my works and think eww.

But, that is how I write.

Here's the question for the group:

If you believe Hemingway, why?
If you think Hemingway is full of sh**, why?

Come on. Convince us why those words are, or are not true.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I concur with Hemingway.

I'm not going to comment on grammatical concerns as those seem obvious. From my experience, I don't know enough about my characters, the setting, the plot and all of the story's surrounding conflicts to tell the story in the most engaging & immersing way the first time around. After I have written the draft, with all it's disjointed lines, added and deleted characters (even POVs), & other inconsistencies...only then do I have a true blueprint to build the best story. At the outset, I do rough outlines and in-depth character sketches, but I find these can only take me so far. They're for initial planning only, more similar to a sketch than a blueprint.

When the conflicts of the story unfold & become real, my characters show who they could become, not who I once saw them to be. When the plot lines add and intersect clumsily, only then can I ascertain how best to surprise my reader...where to foreshadow events...where to place red herrings...how to effectively make promises & pay them off.

Consider characters alone for a minute. At the end of a draft, they almost always sound too alike to make them feel real. Yes, there are differences, but those things that make each character stand out, make them distinct and real, take a focused effort and consistency throughout. Characterization, I think, is exceedingly important and often overlooked. Things like: occupation, the way a person talks, how they view others, education levels, aspects of personality...all these things among many, if handled in a consistent manner, can aid in making your story come alive. The players in it become real. That's impossible for me to accomplish on the first go. It's simply too much too think about right off the bat. When a draft is completed though, and entered the revision phase, now I can focus on one bit at a time...one character...one plot line....one scene meant to shock or surprise and everything that leads up to that scene.

I take notes on every idea along the way for consideration during revision. You could say the first draft, for me, serves the role of an extremely detailed second outline. So many things need to be expounded on or deleted.
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I don't agree. It varies from author to author, and even from story to story. I have no interest in convincing anyone else - if a person thinks their way is the only way, let them. We get a lot of "here's how I write, so that must be how everyone has to do it."
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I don't agree. It varies from author to author, and even from story to story. I have no interest in convincing anyone else - if a person thinks their way is the only way, let them. We get a lot of "here's how I write, so that must be how everyone has to do it."

I don't think anyone here is saying "my way is the only way". Im certain I'm not, and it's quite possible that Hemingway was speaking from his own experience as well and not generalizing every author. I can't be sure though. I'm not him and I never met the man. It's speculation to assume the phrase's exact meaning either way.

How else are informed opinions generated other than from personal knowledge and experience?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I don't think anyone here is saying "my way is the only way". It's quite possible that Hemingway was speaking from his own experience as well and not generalizing every author. It's speculation to assume the phrase's exact meaning either way.

How else are informed opinions generated other than from personal knowledge and experience?

I don't know what Hemingway intended or not, but it is clear from the OP that the comment is being presented here as universal. That's fine, if people want to believe it. I personally don't get the strong need for self-validation that so many writers seem to have, and that is evident in these sorts of conversations.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I don't know what Hemingway intended or not, but it is clear from the OP that the comment is being presented here as universal. That's fine, if people want to believe it. I personally don't get the strong need for self-validation that so many writers seem to have, and that is evident in these sorts of conversations.

I didn't see it that way. To me the post was presented as a discussion about processes.
But, that is how I write.

Here's the question for the group:

If you believe Hemingway, why?
If you think Hemingway is full of sh**, why?

Come on. Convince us why those words are, or are not true.

Other writers do things differently than I. It's interesting, and sometimes enlightening to hear another's approach to craft.

I see what you're saying about self-validation and I agree, to a point. However, it can be empowering, and confidence building, to realize some of the giants in literature faced the same struggles we all do, at any level.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
It depends. That's always the right answer, isn't it?

I think if you have a good feel for the concept, or plan in a way that removes most of those mistakes before you start, or else have developed a sound storytelling style that doesn't rely on multiple drafts, I don't think the first draft of everything will be sh**.

That isn't to say go publish your first draft without an edit, but it might not need the rewrites that the statement implies.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I'm looking at the sentence that says "I believe those words, and I question those who argue against them." That's a "this is the right way" comment.
 

Aosto

Sage
I haven't completed a novel yet, but here is my take.
Writing a novel is a lot like building a house or doing construction in general. You, being the architect, draw up the plans down to the very last measurement. You flesh out materials used, gather, and build.
Now at the end of the build you are left with a finished project that may or may not need minor touch ups. But you wouldn't rip apart the entire house because it "wasn't right". Its to costly.
How does this translate?
Why would you spend 150 days writing a story you don't even know?
Why would you build a house if you don't know what its supposed to look like?
If you say 'sure, I'll figure it out as I go' then the end result will always he crap. But if you figure it out first. Then the end result will be awesome!
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
From my point of view, the first draft of a story is like a little, helpless creature that you have just created.

At this point the creature has barely started its life, so you cannot expect your creation to be beautiful and brilliant already. The creature needs care, attention, polishing, nurturing and love, so it will eventually grow to be what you want it to be.

If you start your story believing that it is **** then you need to think differently, in my opinion.
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
For 'lesser' authors, Hemingways sentiment is probably pretty close.

For the pro's, though...Hubbard was supposed to be able to produce clean or nearly clean drafts right off. Moorcock wrote the books for his 'Elric' series in something like a week each (hmmm...90,000 words/book, ten days, 9000 words/day - or maybe quicker). Think something like this is true of Stephen King as well).
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Moorcock is one example of was thinking of, though how much revising he did in that week period I don't know. Doesn't seem like he could have done a lot.

Personally, I see no advantage in assuming a first draft will be crap. Better to just evaluate each work on its own merits. If the first draft is great, then fine. If you're ten drafts in and its crap, then keep at it.

I had one story published in a print anthology that was a true first draft. The editor didn't even edit it. I sold another that was as close to a first draft as you can get - none of the published words were given more than a single pass, though I did yank out a number of consecutive paragraphs and replace them with a different direction for the story, so that can't really be said to be a first draft.

Most of my stories go through multiple drafts.

Depends on the story.
 

C Hollis

Troubadour
I'm looking at the sentence that says "I believe those words, and I question those who argue against them." That's a "this is the right way" comment.

Apparently I have offended thee, and for that I apologize.

But, no. It was not intended as "this is the right way" comment. Considering I am speaking of a concept and not a method, I'm not sure how it could be misconstrued as such.

Again, please accept my apology for offense.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Apparently I have offended thee, and for that I apologize.

But, no. It was not intended as "this is the right way" comment. Considering I am speaking of a concept and not a method, I'm not sure how it could be misconstrued as such.

Again, please accept my apology for offense.

I'm not offended and there is certainly no need for an apology. I disagree with the sentiment and I don't see any benefit in approaching one's work in that way.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I had one story published in a print anthology that was a true first draft. The editor didn't even edit it. I sold another that was as close to a first draft as you can get - none of the published words were given more than a single pass, though I did yank out a number of consecutive paragraphs and replace them with a different direction for the story, so that can't really be said to be a first draft.

Most of my stories go through multiple drafts.

Depends on the story.

I assume the works you're speaking of are short fiction & not novel length pieces. There's a big distinction there, in my view, if we're discussing short stories or novels.
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I assume the works you're speaking of are short fiction & not novel length pieces. There's a big distinction there, in my view, if we're discussing short stories or novels.

They are. I know some authors have apparently written novels in one draft, but there's no way I could do that successfully
 

C Hollis

Troubadour
One thing I find interesting is the interpretation of the quote.

For some it seems the quote means that the story itself is junk. I, for one, have never written a crappy story (tongue-in-cheek for those who read this literal).

I take it to mean the structure is junk. Most of my rough's have similar issues. When I'm dumping the story onto the screen, I tend to use too many that's, had's, just's, and was's. I even recognize this as I am writing, but I don't want to interrupt the flow, so they stay that way until round one of edits. There are other issues of the same caliber, but I don't let them slow me down.

Do I go into the process to write crap? Um, no. But I most definitely don't expect perfection from the outset; the story would never get written. It takes several edits to get it where I like it, and I'm okay with that. In a way, I envy those that have the patience and drive to make that first shot perfect.

Asimov was another author who poo-pooed the Hemingway quote.

The other interesting aspect is the interpretation of what is sh**. Of course, some of us don't want to look back on our work and call it names...
I tend to think if it isn't ready to publish, then it's junk. That's what the readers would call it.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Isn't this topic to some degree about the quality you're seeking to produce?

Let's look at two of my favorite authors.

I can see John Ringo shooting his first draft to the editor, only making the necessary revisions (and maybe not even those), and publishing. Truth be told, most of his books have spots where I find the writing iffy at best. I still love reading them, though.

On the other end of the spectrum is someone like Patrick Rothfuss. My understanding is that he agonizes over every word. Name of the Wind joins Eye of the World and Ender's Game in my top three favorite books of all time.

Are you going to tell me that it's not okay to be John Ringo? I buy everything he puts out. He must be doing something right.

Are you going to tell me not to be Patrick Rothfuss? Not many people can write a book that I list among my favorites of all time.

An author needs to find what works for them.
 
Personally, I see no advantage in assuming a first draft will be crap. Better to just evaluate each work on its own merits. If the first draft is great, then fine. If you're ten drafts in and its crap, then keep at it.

This is probably the key. The draft either is or isn't replete with crappitude-- the value of the OP lesson is in not making excuses if it does turn out to be, and to have hope that "many" stories succeeded in spite of starting there. What matters is judging how crappy the result is so far, and what to do from there.

We shouldn't take the lesson too literally, and say that the first draft will be crap before it's even done. (Or that a lot of care on the first draft has to be a waste; that's a writing methods thing. Some of us do plan more carefully, and we think the crap-prevention is worth the effort.)

Then besides the draft itself, there's how much further the writer's goals and plans are. Mr. Rothfuss obviously has higher standards for each individual word than most people, and wow does it show; the Ringos of the world may want to "just" entertain, or to explore their subject by getting a lot of books out while Rothfuss is crafting one. All part of the decision-making.
 

SeverinR

Vala
I would say the first draft is never perfect, it can be improved. It might not be S*&t

I write the story as it comes to me. I don't try to write perfect dialog, tell about the scene, elaborate on anything other then the story.
So in the rewrite I focus more on painting the picture behind the story. Foreshadowing, hints, fitting the pieces together more pefectly.
Each time I rewrite I look for typos and other errors. But I also try to make the scene better.

My style of writing is bare bones first, then add the meat and muscle.

IMHO there is no perfect rule in Writing(& life). There is always the exception. (I wouldn't bet my life on being the exception though)
 
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