The HFIL is a Mary Sue?

[Drakevarg]

You're right, I misspoke and should've paid more attention to my post.

What I mean is, maybe the "self-insert" is a valuable part of the discussion on the fan fiction sites, but I don't think it is elsewhere.

And I think the idea that the problem is "immersion breaking" is necessary to make the notion measurable and definable as a problem. If it doesn't even break immersion, then who cares? The Mary Sue defies belief.

The Mary Sue character is so "blessed by the narrative" that it breaks immersion.

Does that work a little better?

Yes, probably. I rather doubt you can really call a Mary Sue out if their inherent amazingitude doesn't pull you out of the story.

EDIT: Got ninja'd by FifthView. Good points there, though I'm sure the underlying causes for Sueness are even more broad and varied than their manifestations. Whole other can of worms beyond just trying to define the bloody things.

 

[WooHooMan]

You're right, I misspoke and should've paid more attention to my post.

What I mean is, maybe the "self-insert" is a valuable part of the discussion on the fan fiction sites, but I don't think it is elsewhere.

And I think the idea that the problem is "immersion breaking" is necessary to make the notion measurable and definable as a problem. If it doesn't even break immersion, then who cares? The Mary Sue defies belief.

The Mary Sue character is so "blessed by the narrative" that it breaks immersion.

Does that work a little better?

"Blessed by the narrative" is a pretty good term. I wish I had more opportunities to use it.

On the subject of Rey from Star Wars, she was "blessed by the narrative" in such a way that it broke my immersion. So, could I say she was a Mary Sue without causing some kind of debate or disagreement?

 

[Drakevarg]

"Blessed by the narrative" is a pretty good term. I wish I had more opportunities to use it.

On the subject of Rey from Star Wars, she was "blessed by the narrative" in such a way that it broke my immersion. So, could I say she was a Mary Sue without causing some kind of debate or disagreement?

You can't say you take your tea without sugar on the Internet without causing some kind of debate or disagreement. So no. Sueness is still a very open-ended and subjective assessment of a character after all, and borderline cases of anything are harder to agree on than obvious runaway abusers.

 

[Steerpike]

I like Rey. On the subject of Mary Sues, I don't mind them if they work within the context of the story and the author does a good job.

 

[FifthView]

I like Rey. On the subject of Mary Sues, I don't mind them if they work within the context of the story and the author does a good job.

I think it's a good question, whether the term Mary Sue must always carry a negative connotation. Baron Munchausen comes to mind. It is possible to enjoy the exploits, even the absurdity (in those cases that are absurd), and so forth without having immersion broken—so I've wondered if breaking immersion is an apt description. But it depends on whether the term is always a negative.

 

[Steerpike]

I've mentioned Jack Reacher before. Seems like a Mary Sue in many ways, but the books are quite enjoyable.

 

[Drakevarg]

I don't think I've ever heard a character be actively praised FOR their Sueness. In spite of, perhaps. So yes, I'd say that being a Mary Sue holds inherently negative connotations. But as mentioned, Sueness is a ballpark, not a point. There are both variations and degrees of being a Mary Sue. Their presence doesn't necessarily invalidate a story's entertainment value, nor does it inherently invalidate anyone's enjoyment of the character. Much like the term "overpowered," it both requires context to have meaning and is often open to debate.

That said, I wouldn't say the term is inherently meaningless. It's like temperature. Everyone has their own tolerances and comfort zones. But that doesn't make the concepts of "cold" or "hot" meaningless, especially when extremes are taken into account.