The 'Middle-Earth' Dilemma: Too much backstory

[pmmg]

Well...I dont wish to be the one who has to explain Tolkien. I have my own story world, but some of the questions are still the same. And some of the answer are probably the same too. Its not important to the story to explain it all. Its enough that the Orcs are on the bad side.

There are, of course, many ways to answer those questions, and many have in their various renditions of evil creatures. But orcs do not really seem like to type to have a nurturing culture, even behind the scenes, I am dubious they could really manage innovation and pass things learned along. To compare them to cultures that we can find on earth, would not truly suffice, cause even in cultures where evil people get in charge, there is still a lot under them who are good people. I dont know who was the most evil culture that ever lived, but i bet the answer to 'did they love their babies too' was yes. I am not sure that would be true for the orcs.

 

[ThinkerX]

The Goblins of my worlds were partly inspired by the Orcs or Gargun of Harnworld, which is supposedly linked to Middle Earth. Anyhow...

Gargun

Gargun: they have many names, Foulspawn, Goblins, Orcs, Hârn's Gargun are a race of small, malevolent, intelligent humanoids.

www.worldanvil.com

 

[Gallio]

They are hardly one-dimensional as it is. Just discussion between Shagrat and Gorbag gives orcs more depth than most villains - including modern "grey" ones - really have.

True, those two are given a bit of depth.

 

[Prince of Spires]

About Tolkien orcs, it should be noted that we see very, very little of them, all of it through the eyes of a bunch of hobbits who know absolutely nothing about them. Just the "where are the females?" question already shows this. For all we know all the orcs who took Merry and Pippin were actually female. We don't know because they don't. Now, I think, given who Tolkien was, that in his mind the fighting ones were all male. And that he simply hadn't given any thought about all the other questions. But from inside the story we simply can't know.

In Lord of the Rings, we only see a few orc armies and raiding parties, and an orc watchtower. That's by no means their whole civilization. That would be like judging Americans on what's going on inside a military base, and then only when viewing the soldiers in it. For all you know, there are great orc cities in the south of Mordor, where orc sculptors make the most wonderful sculptures, rivaling the best of the renaisance artists, and poets rival Shakespear.

Again, I don't think that's the case, but we just don't know. Tolkien designed his orcs to be forces of evil. He drifted between them being twisted elves and twisted humans and a few other options (the elves one made it into the Silmarillion, but that's just because he included that in an early story). Evil for Tolkien corrupts, conquers and destroys. But it's also smart and cunning and innovative. Sauron was a great smith and craftsman. Morgoth was the greatest of the gods, who made plenty of stunning works. He just twisted them to evil. So while I don't think you'll find an orc Shakespear in Middle Earth, you would find an engineer who devises weapons of war.

Also, being evil doesn't mean you can't love. If anything, the love to rule and dominate is one of the big issues. For Tolkien it just means you love power and technological advancement more than harmony and friendship.

As for evil human civilizations, that's mainly a matter of portrayal and framing. You could argue that the Spartans for instance weren't the nicest of people. But they're somehow mainly framed as this heroic if war-like culture. But paint them green, and you could easily build a whole orc race on them. Complete slave economy, all the males focus on is war and fighting, anyone not living up to their expectations put to death, children not kept in their homes but raised from a young age to fight. Sounds like orcs to me.

 

[Aldarion]

And that he simply hadn't given any thought about all the other questions.

He actually did, at least some of them. He specifically pointed out that Orcs "procreate in the manner of Children of Illuvatar", and that Mordor uses slaves to grow food around the Sea of Nurnen.

For all you know, there are great orc cities in the south of Mordor, where orc sculptors make the most wonderful sculptures, rivaling the best of the renaisance artists, and poets rival Shakespear.

There aren't. We see orc "art" in their debasement of sculpture of Gondorian king, and Tolkien specifically compares some of countercultural vandals of his time to orcs IIRC.

So if there is any orc "art", it would look much like modern art: designed to shock rather than celebrate beauty.

Here are some good examples of orc art, I think:

https://www.widewalls.ch/magazine/10-artworks-shocking-art

25 Worst Examples Of Modern Art

Art used to be objective. Meaning, if little time, effort, or discipline was applied to the craft and final product, people had the ability to say "That's rubbish, try again." Art was commissioned by the

list25.com

As you yourself pointed out:

Evil for Tolkien corrupts, conquers and destroys. But it's also smart and cunning and innovative.

Orcs are great engineers, but terrible artists.

 

[Gallio]

As for evil human civilizations, that's mainly a matter of portrayal and framing. You could argue that the Spartans for instance weren't the nicest of people. But they're somehow mainly framed as this heroic if war-like culture. But paint them green, and you could easily build a whole orc race on them. Complete slave economy, all the males focus on is war and fighting, anyone not living up to their expectations put to death, children not kept in their homes but raised from a young age to fight. Sounds like orcs to me.

I've always disliked Spartan culture, mainly because I know I would have survived a few days of it. Yes, they'd make excellent orcs.