The Nature of God/Divine Entities

[Horus]

I read thru a recent topic on if Gods should be "real" or not, but was curious about something beyond that question. If Gods are real, then what is their nature. How powerful are they? What is their stack in the world? Should they have any?

In my current project, I already decided long ago that Gods were a very real and dangerous force. The extent of their power is highly vague however. Their servants are capable of being powerful enough to large groups of soldiers, wielding powers more in line with those typical of a dragon in most fantasy settings. They themselves are treats as a sort of boogieman threat. There are no records of what Gods are capable of, in person.

Behind the scenes, the gods themselves are not nearly as powerful as people THINK they are. They aren't omnipotent (given multiple omnipotent beings is an inherent contradiction, in my opinion) and they aren't omniscient. They were all once mortals, and are still capable of being killed, albeit by means not readily available to most. They are more like network admins playing a game of chess between each other. They have their own goals, BUT they also have a job to do. The goddess of magic must maintain her network, or the world would fall to ruin. So too must all the other major gods. Then you have spirits that are essentially Shinto-ist deities that have accrued power thru mortal belief. They must act to ensure followers still have "need" for them.

In my setting, a god is a god only if you have two things. A "spark" that enables you to manipulate/enter the system that makes being a "god" possible, and a "source" to feed you so that you won't lose power over time while fulfilling your own goals/job. The gods are actively motivated to make sure mortals either worship them, or continue performing some act that feeds them. They are also actively motivated to ensure that their followers do well, because if they don't, they might cease to be a god. There are other factors at play, namely the fact that all the gods I described are of a "new" variety. The Old Gods are more akin to Lovecraft style creatures that were so incomprehensible that trying to relate to them, or place them within any kind of moral/ethical boundary, is essentially impossible.

Now, all this was decided because I wanted to tell a story that questioned the nature of what people think a God is. I also wanted to tell a story in which God, may in fact be the ultimate enemy. In a setting where magic can make an individual very god like, is a god different from a very powerful mage? Should they be? I am curious what the nature of god is in your setting. Are they aloof, barely invested beings, or do they behave in a human way because they have understandable motivations? Do they need mortals, or are they just in it for the "father feeling"?

 

[Orc Knight]

Eld's gods and the Elder are all over the map. The Elder are the aloof embodiments of nature, sometimes. They are the many moons, the sun and stars and a thousand other parts of the fabric of the universe. They get involved from time to time, mostly to fight against each other, mainly the Tusked Elder and the Fea Elder with others taking sides.

The actual gods range from holding to little interaction (The Goddess of Hope having a strange idea of it) to the War Gods often getting involved with their paladins and champions and taking bloody sacrifice. Or the Love Deities getting involved. Few inspire 'father/motherly feeling' unless that's their particular domain. Many do keep at least decent interactions, though Lolth is one of the few who stays out of the celestial realms and hangs out in the drow capitol city and has a wing in the palace for her. Though both they and the Elder have found to their dismay, they can be killed. By the mortals no less, because they didn't keep watch of how strong they were getting. And in fact, many have went god themselves. Others have straight up killed the Elder concepts. Though the Elder will get a chance to come back, because nature is a cycle. The other gods are fifty/fifty.

 

[FifthView]

In most of my settings, gods are merely figments of the imagination. They're the icons or idols the people use for understanding their own world. It's like saying that dark energy and dark matter exist -- because that can be the only explanation! Heh.

However, I have one world in which the goddess once existed in truth. The people continue to believe she exists. She was actually an extraterrestrial being who had a massive, enduring effect on this planet, is now long dead, but the people don't know that.

For the world I'm currently using, there's a non-human being with tremendous power who is only dimly aware of living creatures and almost entirely unknown to the sentient species on the planet. Many of the effects that these sentient peoples attribute to various gods are things caused or influenced by this entity. But this entity is not a god.

 

[Devor]

For me, I'm only now realizing that I didn't even think about giving the gods servants. I think it might be one of the things I like most about them.



When it comes to societies, I mean, they're real. There's no "I believe" or "I serve" about it. There's six of them and they're part of the natural order of things whether you like it or not. If you live a good life the phoenix goddess gives you a nice life in the next one. What's to fight about?

As for divine servants, they just get in the way of the storytelling. Is it cooler to be threatened by a celestial or by the phoenix goddess in person? If you wake up to see a shadowy figure offering you an creepy magical artifact, is it better to be a creepy demon on the Tigress goddess herself?

Each of the six gods has a role in how the magic works. The Phoenix decides what kind of life you get next and which rules govern that. The Elephant goddess decides what rules determine the beautiful and grants guardian spirits accordingly. They've taken vows that limit them to these roles - although there are powerful artifacts lingering in the world from a time before they took those vows, and those come in and out of history (if they end up in the sea, the gods reclaim them, and can give them back out another time, but they're sworn against creating new artifacts).

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I’ve a similar setup, worshippers feed the power of gods (and non-gods) and that is a circular power flow. The gods are widely varied, but they’ve all been “banned” from the world, and oh my do they want back. It is this dsire for return that is in the background of centuries of upcoming stories. So, there are “gods” with a multitude of mythologies and creation beliefs, but there is a being more powerful, and perhaps even a real “Creator” somewhere in the universe, but this figure is not of importance to the story if it even exists.

Side note: the being more powerful than the gods is extremely powerful (the power of gods varies widely) but this being pulled the world together and can rip it apart again, kill everybody. But its power is macro, not micro. It can keep the world in place or destroy it, but it could not perform common magical tasks one would see as power. It would be like Superman if he never learned how to control his own strength, able to destroy a building, but unable to open a door without twisting the knob off, so to speak.

I read thru a recent topic on if Gods should be "real" or not, but was curious about something beyond that question. If Gods are real, then what is their nature. How powerful are they? What is their stack in the world? Should they have any?

In my current project, I already decided long ago that Gods were a very real and dangerous force. The extent of their power is highly vague however. Their servants are capable of being powerful enough to large groups of soldiers, wielding powers more in line with those typical of a dragon in most fantasy settings. They themselves are treats as a sort of boogieman threat. There are no records of what Gods are capable of, in person.

Behind the scenes, the gods themselves are not nearly as powerful as people THINK they are. They aren't omnipotent (given multiple omnipotent beings is an inherent contradiction, in my opinion) and they aren't omniscient. They were all once mortals, and are still capable of being killed, albeit by means not readily available to most. They are more like network admins playing a game of chess between each other. They have their own goals, BUT they also have a job to do. The goddess of magic must maintain her network, or the world would fall to ruin. So too must all the other major gods. Then you have spirits that are essentially Shinto-ist deities that have accrued power thru mortal belief. They must act to ensure followers still have "need" for them.

In my setting, a god is a god only if you have two things. A "spark" that enables you to manipulate/enter the system that makes being a "god" possible, and a "source" to feed you so that you won't lose power over time while fulfilling your own goals/job. The gods are actively motivated to make sure mortals either worship them, or continue performing some act that feeds them. They are also actively motivated to ensure that their followers do well, because if they don't, they might cease to be a god. There are other factors at play, namely the fact that all the gods I described are of a "new" variety. The Old Gods are more akin to Lovecraft style creatures that were so incomprehensible that trying to relate to them, or place them within any kind of moral/ethical boundary, is essentially impossible.

Now, all this was decided because I wanted to tell a story that questioned the nature of what people think a God is. I also wanted to tell a story in which God, may in fact be the ultimate enemy. In a setting where magic can make an individual very god like, is a god different from a very powerful mage? Should they be? I am curious what the nature of god is in your setting. Are they aloof, barely invested beings, or do they behave in a human way because they have understandable motivations? Do they need mortals, or are they just in it for the "father feeling"?

 

[aDwarfNamedUrist]

In my first world, gods were an integral part of the magic system but nothing else, so they were simply a soul with infinite mana. In the world of my book, there are no "gods," per se, but there are extremely powerful angels called Metatrons, who are at the top of the divine hierarchy. There is one for each zodiac sign, and they each practice a different school of magic. The angel that is above these Metatrons is the Metatron Prime, who is a god in all but name. The Metatron Prime is not the creator, though, the existence of one is uncertain. The other godlike beings in this world are Devils, who are a malevolent counterpart to the benevolent Metatrons. Certain human magicians may rise to equal the power of an angel, but it as nigh impossible to ascend to the rank of Metatron, though there are legends from times long past that a human hero once ascended past the power of the Metatron Prime and expelled the angels and demons to their planes that they currently inhabit. The truth of this is unknown, as the Metatrons and angels can only remember as far back as the oldest human alive, which in itself lends some credence to the story.

 

[WooHooMan]

I actually had a very major point I was trying to make in my setting concerning the nature of divinity. I guess you could call it a (and I hate using this word) "deconstruction" of how gods/Gods/God are presented in fantasy fiction.

Basically, there were the gods: supernatural and divine beings with inherent magic powers far beyond any mortal which they use to exercise near total control over some kind of personal domain. These gods ruled over the world for millennia, entered into contracts with their subjects in the form of patronage via prayers and offerings. There's sort of a motif about the similarities between gods/divine rules and kings/mortal rulers.

Then, under mysterious circumstances, a few mortals "transcended" and become Gods - with a capital G. They were collectively omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. They also created the universe as it is known and, to some extent, sustain it. And they killed the gods, proving their superiority over all other divinities.
However, the point of contention is that these Gods were not omnibenevolent nor did they display divine simplicity. And ultimately, they were proven to be unfit to be worshiped as a result.

I mean, there's more to this story's theological theme including the idea of people's willpower being able to create divine entities and how divine entities can exist outside the boundaries of the physical universe but that stuff gets kind of complicated and there's already too much text in this thread.

 

[Annoyingkid]

The gods are actively motivated to make sure mortals either worship them, or continue performing some act that feeds them. They are also actively motivated to ensure that their followers do well, because if they don't, they might cease to be a god.

Why? Are you defining being worshipped as a necessary prerequisite to being a god therefore no worship = just a powerful being thats ignored, or are you saying the god is actually depowered out of godhood by followers no longer doing well. If mortals are not divine, but what is utterly dependent on mortals is, then mortals can create or eliminate gods by their own actions and decisions. That seems to be an even higher power than what the gods have.

 

[Devor]

Why? Are you defining being worshipped as a necessary prerequisite to being a god therefore no worship = just a powerful being thats ignored, or are you saying the god is actually depowered out of godhood by followers no longer doing well. If mortals are not divine, but what is utterly dependent on mortals is, then mortals can create or eliminate gods by their own actions and decisions. That seems to be an even higher power than what the gods have.

The notion that gods are created by the worship beliefs of the people is well-trod territory in the genre. It's part of D&D, a huge number of books, featured in anime, was part of a big ABC Merlin miniseries - it's pretty normal.

 

[Annoyingkid]

Normal doesn't mean explained.

Why aren't the people considered deities if they have the power to create or destroy deities. As far as I'm concerned they're all gods. Or rather the population of mortals can be considered a god made of many.

 

[plasticroyal]

Why? Are you defining being worshipped as a necessary prerequisite to being a god therefore no worship = just a powerful being thats ignored, or are you saying the god is actually depowered out of godhood by followers no longer doing well. If mortals are not divine, but what is utterly dependent on mortals is, then mortals can create or eliminate gods by their own actions and decisions. That seems to be an even higher power than what the gods have.

Individually mortals wouldn't be more powerful than the Gods their faith creates though, so it's not quite as paradoxical as you've suggested. It would be collective worship and belief that would lead to a God rising to power and humans individually wouldn't compare to it, right?

 

[Annoyingkid]

Individually mortals wouldn't be more powerful than the Gods their faith creates though, so it's not quite as paradoxical as you've suggested. It would be collective worship and belief that would lead to a God rising to power and humans individually wouldn't compare to it, right?

Depends on the number of people left. If there's only five people left in the world, than individuals would matter alot more. But gods can be a collective. The Christian trinity is a collective. There's a better case for saying the population of people who's faith created and empowers is more of a god than the actual being they create. Because the god's fate is in the hands of the people. Is the people's fate in the hands of the god?

 

[Jorunn]

This is always a big question for me. In some worlds, the gods are very real and they can drop by for tea and shenanigans if the mood takes them. Those are more of a "classical" pantheon in that they have a physical existence and new ones only come about by being born of other gods. I have other worlds where "gods" are venerated ancestors, and different regions may have only the original 4 or others depending on local history. Anyone in this world can become a god after they die as long as they are treated as such by the living with enough consistency. And in others "gods" are just huge wise monsters who long ago struck a bargain with the local population, but their power is limited and they are very much mortal. I like to take sort of a Faery approach to deities; it's their nature to be curious about "lower" beings and contracts made are binding. Whether either of those things is helpful to said lower beings is not always a concern.

I don't think I have any omniscient, omnipresent deities anywhere, at least not ones that have any actual existence in the world of the story. There are cultures with belief in such a being, but in that world there's nothing to show that anyone's god/s really exist. In most of my worlds the nature of deity is something priestly types and intellectuals debate about, just like it is in this one. Some of them do have the advantage of being able to objectively ask said deities, but I don't know that the answers would be of much use. (Now I have an idea for a Trickster god where that was "theft"...it told a monk too much about godhood and got a holy smiting from its brethren).

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

There is no separation between humans, nor between divinity and humanity. Many humans just think there is.

 

[Thomas Laszlo]

My current work of fantasy for nanowrimo has a polytheistic system. I'm not sure if they will be omniscient or not but they will be powerful. One or more of them is helping/becomes the antagonist. I don't have a lot figure out, taken up time wise with a huge English poetry project.

 

[skip.knox]

This is why my world has no authorial gods. There are plenty of gods the people of Altearth believe exist. They pray to them and they even get results. Since all the stories take place within Altearth, there's no need for me to decide if gods "really" exist. People believe in them, and that's what's interesting. Abstract reality is dull and should be left to the physicists.

 

[ThinkerX]

This issue plays a role in my 'Empire' series of novellas/short novels. In the last three or four, it becomes a central issue.

The main religion is a variant of gnostic Christianity - 'Christianity without Christ.' The 'True God' is seen as a utterly spiritual entity served by a plethora of Saints, ranging from entirely imaginary to deceased normal folk to powerful entities once regarded as deities in their own right.

Existing in parallel to this, and incorporated into it in a sideways sort of fashion, is a collection of Lovecraftian entities powerful enough to be termed 'Gods.'

 

[Horus]

Why? Are you defining being worshipped as a necessary prerequisite to being a god therefore no worship = just a powerful being thats ignored, or are you saying the god is actually depowered out of godhood by followers no longer doing well. If mortals are not divine, but what is utterly dependent on mortals is, then mortals can create or eliminate gods by their own actions and decisions. That seems to be an even higher power than what the gods have.

That is actually the point of it all. Several characters in the story use Nietzsche-ish principles to suggest that the gods themselves are useful, but only to a point, and that they should eventually be eliminated entirely, IF mortals progress to the point where the existence of gods holds no value. Problem is, even if it sounds easy to simply stop believing in a god... its in reality about as possible as telling someone to not look behind them. They're going to look. People aren't that easily manipulated, where belief is concerned. Imagine how many people in real life would denounce their religion when science suggests that their "miracles" are impossible. Now imagine how many people would do that if those miracles were every bit as factual as the air we breathe. It's impossible to influence people on that scale, unless you can find a catalyst.

In my setting, the gods draw power from collective consciousness of mortals using a system far older than they are. The original Gods created this system, but when they were gone, the "new" gods re-purposed it to fill-in for the original Gods absence. These gods are gods due to possessing a "spark" that allows them to manipulate this system, and they only remain gods thru the belief people have in them/what they represent.

But I am more interested in how people deal with giving "gods" believable motivations. When God is "benched" on the outside of the story, it isn't really needed. Their existence is speculative. When Gods are active players, this shouldn't be so. The more "human" you make a god, the more "human" their motivations must seem. If you make them entirely alien, that works too, but only into making them more of a frustrating mystery. In my story, they are human-ish only to a point, because they have a desire to survive.

The actual physics of it isn't really touched on in the main story too much. It would bog down the reader way too much with something they may not care to know. That's like watching an anime about giant robots, then spending an hour explaining its hydraulic joint systems. No one would want to watch it, except maybe an engineer.