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The purple Bengal Tigers eat yellow marshmlllows and should they be Rasberry flavour

Amanita

Maester
Like many others too, it's hard for me to understand what your actual problem is. If you believe this is a good thing, maybe just another bit of proof of the stupidity inherent to the rest of us, continue believing it by all means though I fail to see the point in such posting. If this isn't your intention, trying to make it clearer might help.
If I got it right, you believe that many of us put too much effort into world-building and too little into the plot. The questions about world-building, magic and the like annoy you, because you don't think there important or consider posting them a sign of arrogance. By the way, I've noticed that this kind of things isn't too welcome on the forums anymore and therefore stopped posting any of it quite a while ago. ;)
If this is your problem I wonder why you don't just ignore these threads and read those with "better" questions. No one makes you click on threads which annoy you though I also know that there is an unhealthy tendency to do just that. ;)
It's become quite common here on the forums that members talk about how they've figured out what has to be done to become a succesful author and how everyone with a different opinion is so wrong and doomed to failure. I don't understand this missionary fervour. If you're sure they're going to fail, let them (us) fail and prove yourself right by succeding yourself. Not becoming a succesful writer will not mean life-shattering misery, at least not for me.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I am discussing a point and every single person that has a bruise and tries to justify why they are doing things just shows they feel guilty about their acts. A person who is solid in the knowledge of creating an epic or something great does not need to justify their existence.

. . . .

But more importantly if we cannot cultivate a feeling of compassion help and understanding, then this just becomes an ego trip with egos the size of planets with purple ninja leaves.

We write fantasy, right? So we should know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is, right? If you assume that everyone is posting out of ego, and you treat people accordingly, well of course that's the response you're going to get. People resent being told their ideas are self-serving.

It could, however, occur to you to invite someone to share more about their story, which they might do if you explained that raspberry was a terrible flavor of mushroom to feed to the purple Bengal tigers because raspberry is kind of a fad right now. Cranberry would sound more distinctive.

It seems to me that we shouldn't make sweeping assumptions about the quality and content of someone's work because they ask about their world and not about their story. You seem to think it means they have no story, and that's condescending. It's just really not easy to talk about your story in these forums, and that's not changing anytime that I can foresee.

And by the way, telling people that they must be "bruised" and that they're out to "justify their existence"? What the Hell? Have you even read any of their work? Mine? Maybe everybody in this thread should swap excerpts and we can see who here really needs most to justify their existence.
 

Queshire

Auror
I know from personally experience that when you go with a world first approach it is very easy to get so caught up in the world building that you never get around to writing the actual story, or that if you go world first you're tempted to cram everything you ever invented about your world into your book even if it doesn't fit, but really....

I can't help but think....

So what?

Writing isn't my career, it's a hobby. Sure getting published would be nice, but I really don't mind. As a hobby, I want it to be fun. World building is fun. When I try plot first, I feel so stifled. Oh no! You can't let your imagination fly because it doesn't fit the story! You may think that when we post our magic systems without really asking any questions that we're just bragging how cool an idea we came up with it, and you're prolly right. Again, though, that's what I find fun so really, whatever.
 

gavintonks

Maester
This post is a discussion nothing more, I have not posted anything about what I believe I have posted what I have observed.
It is not rocket science to ignore a post and far too many deserving people have their posts ignored when they are asking for help while we are on the point, it costs nothing to read a few lines and support a fellow reader. So why ignore something when you can add value?

I have no idea where the point comes that I have a problem, does it look or sound like I have a problem? This is a post which is making people react and react with their emotional conviction about what they perceive to be written. It is a challenge for people to debate, and all I see is opinion and not debate, wh can you not play the ball I have put into play?
Why must it be I have some hidden agenda?

The opinions so far are about what people believe as my motive which is erroneous, I have made a statement which some people have picked up on and understand the post completely,- is their a perception that writing about the decor is a good story, and yes if the person succeeds at doing it well done. But who is being successful and selling or is it a case of floundering around in the hope of hitting something in the dark.



I love the presumption that I am talking about someone who has posted and being critical of a member here which is a completely false perception, but the fact that their is a body of work that has no story yet people carry on about it as if they do have one.
 

Queshire

Auror
Honestly, I don't mean to be rude, but it would help if your writing was less.... Purple Prose-ish. If we mistake your intention it's because we have to disect your posts to figure out just what the hell you're trying to say. =_=

Basically, you're trying to get us to talk about how much detail we should write about things that aren't important to the plot? I think that can vary. A fleshed out detailed environment can certainly add atmosphere to the story which is good, but too much and your readers get bored which is bad. According to the Law of Conservation of Detail the more detailed a thing is the more important it should be to the plot, and likewise unimportant things shouldn't be that detailed, but too much of that can hurt your writing. "Oh hey that guy has a name! He must be important"

Basically, I guess each author has to find the right balance for themselves, yeah?
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Gav, I agree with the basics of what I think your initial post is saying, but the way things are worded and present is rather opaque. One has to really dig and in some instances guess at what the post is saying. If there is to be a discussion or debate one has to know what is being debated and discussed first, and that is not clear.

IMHO one of the greatest skills a writer must have is the ability to state things clearly and, from my perspective, that is the big bone of contention that's laying there between the dogs right now. I don't think people are understanding exactly what you're saying and the misunderstandings are causing friction.

Maybe I'm just thick, so could you please restate what your thoughts or positions are in a simpler and clearer manner so folk like me can have a better understanding?
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
....their is a body of work that has no story yet people carry on about it as if they do have one.

That right there is what I've been responding to, Gav. Why do you say that someone asking one question has no story which they're just not posting about?
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
You could read my work some time. I'm pretty confident in it, and am thick-skinned enough to hear anything you have to say about it. Not everyone here is brimming with confidence, though, and some people can't take the slightest criticism. That being said, being abrasive isn't the best way to start a relationship with anyone, and the point people think you're trying to make... sounds sort of abrasive.

Have I been blown away by every excerpt I've read? Not hardly. But then, I have plenty of my own stories I'd like to strengthen too. While I have some scenes that would make a grown man cry, and others that are so spicy you need a break in the middle for some air, not every scene I write is as riveting. Shall I give up because a work isn't strong? I don't think so. I take my time and LEARN the skills necessary to bring my story to light. Unfortunately, I don't edit as I go, I edit at the end. And so do many of the people here. So often their posts are not as clean as we'd like, because they are still WRITING. While I agree, I'd rather see pretty clean things in the showcase, I think the questions forums are the perfect place for people to ask their questions about their first drafts.

Please, if you have experience you want to share with those of us who are trying to learn all we can about strengthening ourselves as writers, offer it. And if you are just being curmudgeonly, consider critiquing some of my stuff. I like a good, tough, no-holds-barred critique. Some folks can't handle it, but I actually like being raked through the coals.
 

gavintonks

Maester
I am enjoying the posts as
1 - this post is deliberately vague in order to stimulate debate which is happening, and people are rising to the challenge, if an issue is clear cut you answer yes or no. If a post is vague you are challenging the perceptions and unpacking the words looking for understanding. Hopefully then you will share the understanding and ask for clarity. This way we have a process of development in terms of the original objective of the post.
Pius we also get a new objectivity when people analyze the post [it is a thought form it is not objective writing] what they have read and how they respond accordingly.
Explanation of a thought form - we think in abstract shapes, so the text is designed to present an abstract shape purple yellow tigers stripes,it is meant to be confusing
2 - It is not for me to judge successful writing as many people have succeeded with obscure writing that has flaunted every single norm that is posted. However if we can see the passion and the determination to make a story succeed, then that i learning and an aha moment.
Stories grow from the heart, emotion and dedication, and this sets a story apart, so on the one hand we have style writing, good and bad advice and on the other we have passion and experience and desire. With desire you can accomplish anything, it is a necessary driving force, so you need to know what is driving you. Some people have mentioned that
3 - The reason I have posted this is to try and get more people to engage. I wanted to shake the tree of complacency, when your world is attacked you defend it, and when your defense is challenged you reach down to depths you never knew you had.
Life is short and requires living, it requires risk, it requires using what you have but many people sit in a comfort zone, when that is taken away from you, you begin to realize this vast sea of opportunity that you exist in. It is so awesome, but many do not believe it is theirs to have and unless you are challenged you pick the low hanging fruit.[so to speak]

I have set a ball rolling, I had a number of conflicting emotions of the feelings being generated by the board in general, I wanted to challenge the process.
Now imagine the excitement to run with this concept and open doors you never knew were there or even closed.Their is an excitement in discovery, in sharing and in growing.

I want this post to challenge our complacency and add value to ourselves and challenge what we are too scared to look at for fear of failure.
Writing is the hardest thing I have ever done, and it is really hard work to learn, I have grown enormously thanks to many people who have taken time out and made comments, It is like seeing yourself as a balloon you need all the air you can get to grow to your full potential.

I also find the concept of people requiring a thick skin because growing and learning is not having a thick skin it is understanding that we have generated something that is green and requires ripening, The first crit I ever received was devastating the person refused to read it because some commas were in the wrong place.

If we understand the nature of the site and the need for growth and the value of a person investing time in us, we can become more objective.The objective is to grow to be good authors whose work is read and enjoyed, even if it is a hobby.If we change perception and attitude we can understand growth and sharing and remove the negative emotional stigma of criticism and see it as self growth.

We after all have one choice - how we accept the criticism as personal or as education
 

gavintonks

Maester
Anihow can I ask you to post a piece here and then let us break things down from your intent, your desire and your process, and look at the objectives against the writing skill and style, as an objective exercise that looks at building the positives. My book is 117 000 words and I need to look at every single word and see if it is the right one. It is hard I am not skilled in punctuation, spelling and grammar which makes it even harder for me.

I want this process to be a building not a breaking down and a requirement of novacane before we read the criticism
 

gavintonks

Maester
The biggest problem is the concept is a nebulous concept. it is undefined difficult to put your finger on and above all emotional. We need to detach ourselves from emotion as objectivity in terms of readability, but embrace that passion and emotion to make people resonate with their work.

I believe that Van Gogh work is so prized because he painted his life essence into his work, his madness and life bleeds from every stroke as ours should with every word.
We are all using the same dictionary and words but what makes us using those words different, - the passion we embody in the writing
 

gavintonks

Maester
If the head Bengal Tiger put raspberry juice in the yellow marshmallows to hide the almond flavored poison, we have a story because we want to know why?well I hope so.

This is the first clue in the post - well I hope so, I have to believe that I can make it work, and I need to work through it until it works as that is the difference getting up one more time until it succeeds.
 

Queshire

Auror
There's intentionally being vague to promote discussion and then there's being so vague that we don't know what the hell the discussion is supposed to be about. =_=
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
I would think the power would fall in your hands, Gavin, since you're the one who made the thread to start the discussion.
 

gavintonks

Maester
1- how much emotional iq does one need in your story to make it grab readers?
2 - How innovative can you be in this climate in order to be published / good work is often ignored as it is too much of an effort to market
3 - how passionate are you about what you are doing, and the choices to be successful?
4 - how focused are you on a story for your readers?
5 - how positive are you in developing something as to say breaking people / stories down [as we definitely have attitude at times from both sides] as people misconstrue the purpose of criticism and development
6 - how good a writer do you wish to be? great! and how much are you prepared to push the story until it rocks, what do you determine as being 'finished?'
7 - are you here to engage and improve or hoping to be be discovered?
8 - maybe we should have a situation when people post it is because they have read and commented on other posts in order to earn a 'privilege' of people's time and effort?
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Okay, it's hard to find a scene which needs no background to understand the context, but I'll give it a go. This is a scene I think is weak, but it is part of the antagonist interrogating the MC. She's been kidnapped and this is the first of three interrogation scenes, the last of which is pretty brutal and bloody. Anyways, I could use some help with it, because as it stands, it runs the risk of being cut upon editing.

CHAPTER 6

“The cell” was a damp and filthy place. It was a large round stone dungeon that smelled of mold and excrement. The walls were approximately thirty-five feet high, and made of smooth stones, impossible to climb. Raven could make out the stars in the night sky above.

Her hands were still bound, but she could freely move around the large dungeon. She sat in silence upon a musty straw mattress, having taxed herself yelling for help through the day. The stone walls were thick and the grate above so far away.

A clanging sounded at the door, causing Raven to stand, and a moment later the door opened and Dimata’s men entered followed by the mage, Simon.

Raven stared steadily ahead.

The guards stood at attention at the door as the mage approached her. Raven smelled fear upon him. It was quite clear to her that he was a novice at magic, even though she had little knowledge of the ways of wizards. He lacked confidence. He had duped Dimata. What did he want with her?

“Have you anything to tell me?” asked the awkward wizard in a sniveling voice, “or are you enjoying your stay in the cell?” He snickered rudely.

Raven said nothing.

“If you don’t feel like talking to me, that’s fine. Dimata has ways to make you talk.”

Raven glared a him. “But not you? If that is the case, I will wait for the real interrogators to arrive.”

When Simon grew angry, she was pleased.

“Guard!” he shouted.

One of the men stepped forward.

“Your sword,” demanded Simon, holding out his hand.

Raven did not blink. She would give nothing away to him.

The guard also made no motion. The mage looked at the guard expectantly.

“My Lord has not given me instructions to hand my weapon over to anyone,” the guard said, apologetically.

Simon’s frustration grew.

Forgetting all reason Raven smirked, playing the game of the Dons; manipulation, intimidation, and domination. She laughed a long rude laugh as Simon’s face turned red.

“A sword? A real mage would threaten with a fireball or lightning bolt!” she roared. “Or had he not that, then at least a curse. But all that this one can think of to threaten with is a sword!”

She wiped fake tears from her eyes. “And he cannot command the guard to relinquish the weapon because his authority is as impotent as his magic!”

The mage took a swing at her.

She luckily caught the clumsy, desperate blow with the chain between her two wrist shackles. Simon’s eyes went wide as she twisted the short chain, pinching his wrist painfully.

“Heed me well, false-mage,” she hissed through clenched teeth. “I know you have no power, but for now you have your master fooled. You tricked him somehow with that mirror, you and I both know it.”

He struggled to free his hand, but she held him fast. The soldiers made no immediate move to free Simon. Instead, they exchanged knowing glances between themselves and a faint smile flickered upon the near one’s face.

“Pray that he does not find out,” continued Raven, squeezing his hand tighter. “He’d be displeased with all the energy he’s put into detaining me for naught.”

The guard finally moved forward threateningly, and Raven let up a little on the pressure. Simon snatched his hand back and staggered away from her. He left the cell with the two guards in tow.

Raven slumped down on her mattress and leaned against the cold wall. She could not stop her hands from shaking. Adrenaline coursed through her bloodstream and her heart pounded in her chest.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I like your dialogue and what I can glean from the storyline is interesting.
The problems I have with the scene is there's an awful lot of description that just "tells" us what is around her. It would be far better for us to experience (as readers) if you "showed" us the setting & Raven's predicament by involving her senses...and in turn making it real for us.

For example, instead of saying "the stone wall was cold" tell us how it caused Raven's skin to prickle or her body to shiver.

Just my two cents....
 
In response to the end of post #18, no,but that's what imagination is for. What are you trying to say anyways????? And what's all this nonsense about bruised egos??? Also, just because someone defends their work or methodology doesn't make them in any way guilty. It makes them someone who cares about their work. Another thing---YES, you NEED a setting, or the story will lose much of its appeal and value.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Overall I think the basic personalities of the two characters, Simon and Raven, come across nice enough. The pace, the dialogue, and the foundation of how the scene plays out works. What I think isn’t working is it’s not getting into Raven’s emotional landscape enough. We get more at the tail end of the scene, but almost none at the beginning. So things aren’t quite balanced.

Her hands were still bound, but she could freely move around the large dungeon. She sat in silence upon a musty straw mattress, having taxed herself yelling for help through the day. The stone walls were thick and the grate above so far away.

Here’s an instance where things are being described, but not felt. How do her throat and lungs feel after all that yelling? She can see the stars and sky through the grate, how does that make her feel? Does she wish she were somewhere else, with someone else?

Raven stared steadily ahead.

What’s she thinking here? What’s the purpose of that stare? Is she refusing to show weakness?

“Have you anything to tell me?” asked the awkward wizard in a sniveling voice, “or are you enjoying your stay in the cell?” He snickered rudely.

Raven said nothing.

Again, what’s she thinking? She may be showing defiance on the outside, but is she defiant inside too?

Raven glared a him. “But not you? If that is the case, I will wait for the real interrogators to arrive.”

When Simon grew angry, she was pleased.

This is my favorite bit from the piece. We get a peek at what’s inside Raven.

She luckily caught the clumsy, desperate blow with the chain between her two wrist shackles. Simon’s eyes went wide as she twisted the short chain, pinching his wrist painfully.

Small thing, saying she was lucky takes away from her verbally toying with Simon and just plain being better than him.

“The cell” was a damp and filthy place. It was a large round stone dungeon that smelled of mold and excrement. The walls were approximately thirty-five feet high, and made of smooth stones, impossible to climb. Raven could make out the stars in the night sky above.

Something minor that would probably get caught in further edits, but I’ll just mention it anyway. There’s a bit of redundancy here in terms of description. The first sentence says the cell was damp and filthy, but in the second sentence implies this with the mention of mold and excrement. The second sentence says it’s a stone dungeon and the third sentence says the walls were made of smooth stone. Both these instances I think choosing one over the other would save some words and make things flow better.

Lastly, all the instances where I pointed out wanting to know what Raven was thinking are just spots where some introspection could take place, not should. Because too much introspection will drop a 1000lb weight into the nicely pace scene and slow it to a crawl.

I hope this helps, because sometimes my two cents ain't worth a plum nickel. :p
 
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