The Saintry of the Human Spirit

[Gryphos]

So during my world building process of my steampunk world I got to the point where I had to come up with some kind of primary religion. Right off the bat I decided I wasn't going to have a standard pantheon of gods, so I went through various other options, from nature spirits to Buddhist-esque philosophy. But in the end I settled for the Saintry of the Human Spirit (referred to as just 'The Saintry').

The general concept of the Saintry is that people revere a pantheon of Saints rather than gods, each Saint representing a certain concept, activity or group — for example, St. Henlein is the patron Saint of clockwork and clockmakers, St. Brigunson that of aeronautics, and St. Tuatha that of dreams. These Saints were all once real people who in their life exemplified their respective concept in some way or another, like Karl Brigunson who built and flew the first ever airship. As Saints these people are special in that after death they take on somewhat god-like properties that regular people don't.

These Saints were canonised after death by a special council in the city of Sofea, the centre of the Saintry. But here is where I came across a problem, in that I realised that the council in Sofea would have to canonise these people on behalf of some greater authority, similar to the Catholic Church acting on behalf of God. But I already decided I didn't want to have a 'god' in the conventional sense. So after some thought I came up with the idea of the 'Human Spirit'.

The Human Spirit started out in Saintry belief as basically a god, who created mankind and watched over it. But it always took on a distant role, rarely even mentioned by followers of the Saintry, who were more concerned with the Saints themselves. Then came pioneering biologists Eulices & Dod and their theory of evolution, which completely contradicted the established beliefs of the Saintry. However, following this widely acclaimed and accepted discovery the Saintry adapted their perception of the Human Spirit into something else. Now the Human Spirit wasn't the creator of humanity, but was born from it as a personification of human ingenuity and glory.

And this is the part that I'm questioning. Can such a major institution make such a massive turnaround in belief, or would some sense of stubbornness get in the way of change? And in general what are the possible implications of such a faith?

 

[Snowpoint]

The idea of a non-theistic religion is fine. The whole pantheon of saints thing might have been invented to satisfy the needs of polytheists who were converted later. Or, the saints are entirely a construct of polytheists to mask the worship of their traditional gods. (like with real world Santeria)

 

[Terry Greer]

It's an interesting idea - a nontheistic 'religion' that reveres certain personages as icons.

One of the main problems with created lists of saints may be how you manage an ever increasing number of them. In the catholic church saints multiplied hugely - there were always new ones being created. So much so that there have been 'purges' of saints recently that have stripped some of sainthood.
Saints removed by the Catholic Church | The Templar Knight

Then I start to wonder -
What happens to a saint associated with science when another even more talented scientist comes along? Do they get promoted/demoted like figures on coins or banknotes?

Also do they really have powers? If a non theistic body is canonizing them is it them that are imparting these powers? Or are they just nominal names (such as patron saint of travel).
Do you need a god at all who created the universe? If a god is suspected of being behind it all - even if they take a back seat some will still worship him. Indeed unless the saintly religion is enforced I can't see other religions not springing up.

There's nothing wrong with a group canonizing certain people without it being in a deities name - its no different to - say - a communist state promoting a 'hero of the people'. And, just like those states, revoking that status should situations change. It could very likely be a very controlling government to do this though as it would be a powerful way of controlling the masses.

It's a good idea - with lots of political (and ideological) power behind it - who gets promoted - who gets ignored and destined for oblivion.

 

[Mythopoet]

The idea of a non-theistic religion is fine. The whole pantheon of saints thing might have been invented to satisfy the needs of polytheists who were converted later. Or, the saints are entirely a construct of polytheists to mask the worship of their traditional gods. (like with real world Santeria)

This obviously isn't the place for religious debate, but since you're making an outrageous claim about religion for no real reason, I feel justified in saying that, at least for Christianity, just no. This is not what it is about.

One of the main problems with created lists of saints may be how you manage an ever increasing number of them. In the catholic church saints multiplied hugely - there were always new ones being created. So much so that there have been 'purges' of saints recently that have stripped some of sainthood.
Saints removed by the Catholic Church | The Templar Knight

Removing a Saint from the general liturgical calendar (which is what your link is talking about) does NOT strip away sainthood. All the Saints discussed in that link are still considered Saints.


My first impression of the idea in the OP: "Saintry" sounds like a really awkward word to me.

And this is the part that I'm questioning. Can such a major institution make such a massive turnaround in belief, or would some sense of stubbornness get in the way of change? And in general what are the possible implications of such a faith?

It depends.

First, does the theory of evolution really contradict the previously held beliefs of the institution? You see, the reason that the theory of evolution didn't cause a massive turnaround in Christian belief is that the theory doesn't really contradict anything the Church teaches. (It is primarily badly educated Christians and badly educated non-Christians who think there is a contradiction.) I am a Catholic and I accept that the theory of evolution is true. I merely believe that evolution is one of the many natural mechanisms (like gravity or thermodynamics) that God built into the world when it was created. The Catholic Church accepts the theory as well, because there is no contradiction when properly understood.

So if you want there to be a contradiction that forces a massive change to the belief structure of the Saintry, then you should make sure that the contradiction holds up to scrutiny.

Second, the implications would be huge and widespread. I can't even begin to examine them right now because just, holy crap, it would be huge.

Third, consider that if you want to have a pantheon of Saints, you don't actually need to have any kind of deity that the Saintry acts on behalf of. That's not how Christian Sainthood really works. The Church does not "act" in any way to "create" a Saint. A Saint is something that the Church or sometimes the individual of the Pope is able to recognize. But the Church does not "grant" or "revoke" sainthood. This is because, simply put, a Saint is a person whom we have reason to believe with certainty to be currently in Heaven with God. Usually sainthood is recognized because there have been signs or miracles from the Saint after their death evidencing their state of being now in Heaven (rather than Hell or Purgatory). So either the person is in Heaven or they are not. The Church has nothing to do with whether or not they are in Heaven. The Church is merely able to say "we have reason to know that this person is in Heaven with God". Everyone who has died and is in Heaven is a Saint, technically, but the ones we venerate as Saints by name have shown us some sign, by the power of God (not by the power of the Church or themselves), that they are there.

Thus, because the process of canonization is really a process of recognizing something that has already happened there's really no reason why, in your world, it need be done on behalf of anyone. If a person becoming a Saint is a natural process in your world, there's no need for a deity or a belief in a deity to be involved. See what I mean?

 

[X Equestris]

It seems to me that this sort of belief system might work better alongside some form or another of ancestor worship.

 

[Gryphos]

One of the main problems with created lists of saints may be how you manage an ever increasing number of them. In the catholic church saints multiplied hugely - there were always new ones being created.

I imagine this would be a humorous issue. The way I'm imagining it at the moment the centre of the Saintry would be a place called 'The Catalogue of Saints' in Sofea, where every single Saint would have their ashes stored in the plinth of a statue dedicated to them. This building would probably be quite massive.

As to managing an ever growing list, I don't suppose there is a way around that. I mean, eventually they'll run out of things a Saint can be the Patron of, at which point they'll probably just stop canonising people.

What happens to a saint associated with science when another even more talented scientist comes along? Do they get promoted/demoted like figures on coins or banknotes?

I would say that being the patron Saint of something doesn't necessarily imply that person was the best at that activity, more that they were important to the development of it or represented it in an ideal way. For instance, I can imagine the Patron Saint of cooking wouldn't necessarily have to be the best cook of all time, just someone who was renown in their own time as a phenomenal chef who exhibited ideal qualities.

Also do they really have powers? If a non theistic body is canonizing them is it them that are imparting these powers? Or are they just nominal names (such as patron saint of travel).
Do you need a god at all who created the universe? If a god is suspected of being behind it all - even if they take a back seat some will still worship him.

Well, technically the Saints don't exist, and nor does the Human Spirit, but people believe they do, and that the Saints do indeed have ambiguous divine powers. In contrast, the Human Spirit does not have any great amount of power at all. It can't influence the world as Saints can, except for ascending selected souls to Sainthood (and creating humankind in the first place pre-Eulices & Dod). It was never even believed the Human Spirit made the universe, just humans. In this sense the Human Spirit is less of a deity and more of a natural force of nature.

Indeed unless the saintly religion is enforced I can't see other religions not springing up.

Yes, of course the Saintry wouldn't be the only religion in the world, just the most prominent.

First, does the theory of evolution really contradict the previously held beliefs of the institution? You see, the reason that the theory of evolution didn't cause a massive turnaround in Christian belief is that the theory doesn't really contradict anything the Church teaches. (It is primarily badly educated Christians and badly educated non-Christians who think there is a contradiction.) I am a Catholic and I accept that the theory of evolution is true. I merely believe that evolution is one of the many natural mechanisms (like gravity or thermodynamics) that God built into the world when it was created. The Catholic Church accepts the theory as well, because there is no contradiction when properly understood.

In the real world this is undoubtedly true. But the thing about the Human Spirit is that it's entire premise was that it made humans specifically in an already formed world (unlike real world mono-deities like the christian God, who is attributed to creating the entire universe). The Human Spirit is not omnipotent, so it had no influence over the creation of natural mechanisms in the formation of the universe, and thus could not make evolution happen. Thus, the concept of evolution in my world would indeed be incompatible with the previously held concepts of the Human Spirit.

Third, consider that if you want to have a pantheon of Saints, you don't actually need to have any kind of deity that the Saintry acts on behalf of. That's not how Christian Sainthood really works. The Church does not "act" in any way to "create" a Saint. A Saint is something that the Church or sometimes the individual of the Pope is able to recognize. But the Church does not "grant" or "revoke" sainthood. This is because, simply put, a Saint is a person whom we have reason to believe with certainty to be currently in Heaven with God. Usually sainthood is recognized because there have been signs or miracles from the Saint after their death evidencing their state of being now in Heaven (rather than Hell or Purgatory). So either the person is in Heaven or they are not. The Church has nothing to do with whether or not they are in Heaven. The Church is merely able to say "we have reason to know that this person is in Heaven with God". Everyone who has died and is in Heaven is a Saint, technically, but the ones we venerate as Saints by name have shown us some sign, by the power of God (not by the power of the Church or themselves), that they are there.

This is actually very similar to how it would work with the Saintry. I may not have phrased it well in the OP, but when I say a person is canonised by a special council in Sofea I don't mean they physically decide who becomes a Saint and who doesn't (although, considering the fact that the Human Spirit and Saints don't actually exist, I suppose they technically do, but that's beside the point). Similar to how you mentioned with the Catholic Church, these people would try to interpret whether or not a figure would have been chosen by the Human Spirit, perhaps even trying to commune with the Human Spirit in some kind of ritual (likely involving copious amounts of hallucinogens). Once they're sure a specific person has been chosen, they then declare to the general public that soandso is now the Patron Saint of something.

Thus, because the process of canonization is really a process of recognizing something that has already happened there's really no reason why, in your world, it need be done on behalf of anyone. If a person becoming a Saint is a natural process in your world, there's no need for a deity or a belief in a deity to be involved. See what I mean?

Well, as said above, the Human Spirit isn't really a deity and more a force of nature. It is the natural process by which people become Saints — it just happens to have a name.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Not being Catholic, can I add that normally to be canonised a saint must have attributed to them a number of miracles that occurred during their lifetimes. So I'm not sure that simply being recognised as being the epitome of a particular field of human endeavour or knowledge is sufficient. They've got to have some tangible thing that people know and accept. For example Saint Patrick rightly or wrongly is credited with driving the snakes out of Ireland.

For your work I would suggest that whatever they get credited with must relate to whatever field of endevour they come from. To give an example in The Lady's Man I created a minor order of paladins who followed the example of and gained their powers from a woman who had died destroying all those who had murdered her family. Thus her order was about defence of the vulnerable and vengeance. During her life brigands kept attacking her family, and killing her children. And with each attack she grew stronger as a warrior. Until finally when her last child was killed she grew so strong she destroyed them all. She was killed in the process, but became the patron of an order of paladins in death, and through her they gained their mystical powers.

I'm not sure what your equivalents would be. But maybe your clockmaker became a master who created clocks that would never run slow or fast - supernaturally accurate. Your aeronautics guy flew planes that could dance unnaturally in the air.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Gryphos]

Not being Catholic, can I add that normally to be canonised a saint must have attributed to them a number of miracles that occurred during their lifetimes. So I'm not sure that simply being recognised as being the epitome of a particular field of human endeavour or knowledge is sufficient. They've got to have some tangible thing that people know and accept. For example Saint Patrick rightly or wrongly is credited with driving the snakes out of Ireland.

Well, while this may apply to real world Saints in the Catholic Church, it doesn't necessarily need to apply to my Saintry. Although, I do accept that my Saints would probably have to be credited with some kind of great deed. For example, St. Brigunson, patron Saint of aeronautics, made the first flight in history, and his journey was watched from below all the way to its end, an inspiring event for the whole world. I don't feel, however, that this deed need necessarily be some kind of miracle or piece of magic, as in this world magic worked by humans is extremely stigmatised and occultists are persecuted. Only the Saints are allowed to work miracles, and not while they're still alive.

This leads nicely to another aspect I've yet to mention: the purpose of the Saintry. The Saintry is a religion that is designed to inspire people to greatness. At sanitary services the priest (or 'sain') will read aloud the stories of Saints, which were recorded (and the details of which were likely embellished on occasion for this very purpose) to inspire the people listening to exhibit that trait the Saint possessed. St. Brigunson's story, of him building an airship and flying onto a previously unscalable mountain, is used to tell people to strive for greatness, working as hard as they possibly can to reach the metaphorical sky. All the Saints' stories follow a similar pattern.

One thing I haven't quite decided on is whether there's a concept of an afterlife in the Saintry. Obviously there's an afterlife for Saints, but I'm not sure about everyone else. I know there definitely isn't a 'hell', as there's no real concept of sin. Perhaps followers of the Saintry believe that by achieving greatness (in any form) they will transcend the mortal world and become 'one with the Human Spirit' or something like that.

 

[Snowpoint]

The idea of a non-theistic religion is fine. The whole pantheon of saints thing might have been invented to satisfy the needs of polytheists who were converted later.

I meant this in the context of a fictional world, this a Fantasy forum after all.

The idea of non-theistic "religions" has been done. The churches in World of Warcraft look similar enough to our own, but worship something as ambiguous as "The Light"

With such a cultural focus on acquiring skills, venerating craftsmen, Maybe the government is a meritocracy, or containing elements of such. Although, such beliefs might contradict ancestor/saint worship - depending on how extreme they are.

How are the elderly treated here? That could be a clue to determine other cultural factors.