Thoughts on Adverbs

[Demesnedenoir]

I haven't spontaneously checked any of EL James' recently written work to see how that interestingly phrased theory is hypothetically working out. She's rich, or should I say ridiculously silly rich. So I speculatively guess it decidedly doesn't matter.

Whew! That's enough adverbs for like... a novel!

There's one more point I'd like to make, and this is advice that was given to me so long ago I can't remember where it's from.

If you're working with an editor, adverbs are extremely easy to fix. Writing that suffers from being too flat is not. So while you're learning to write well, it's better to try too hard, to push your language in too many places, or in this case to use the adverbs more freely, and to rely on a process that scales back later. After all, the only way to learn how to use an adverb well... is to actually use them.

 

[Lynea]

I haven't read the other replies, but I wanted to share that I've been sort of reviewing a manuscript for a friend, and almost every dialogue tag has an adverb attached to it. It does get really annoying for me to see it on every line, and my friend hasn't really listened to her friends' advice on using them. That said, I have enjoyed recent books I've read, especially because of clever use with adverbs

 

[FifthView]

That always feels more like a grammer teacher or editor comment than a reader comment to me. As a reader I wouldn't wonder at all about who is making the evaluation.

Sure, I've put it into an analytic framework. That's what we are doing here eh? Many readers won't have such a view of why they like or dislike a particular piece or a style of writing. Here's a quick example of an entire review of a fantasy novel* on Amazon:

This book was slow and not very well written. I gave it a try after reading some of the positive reviews, but the book just didn't do it for me.

The preview of the novel shows the author opening with a section that is obviously—to my eyes—omniscient, but trying a close view of a single character, especially as the writing advances. So maybe the author intended a more limited view? I don't know. The second paragraph comes to its conclusion via an -ly adverb—

....and frantically clawed her way forward again.

—and the next paragraph comes to its conclusion with another adverb used similarly:

....she rolled desperately in the straw away from the door and lay panting in the gloom as the train gathered speed.

I have no way of knowing if the disgruntled reader had any issue with those two adverbs. The novel overall has a 4.3/5 rating on Amazon, out of 1321 ratings. Maybe those two adverbs aren't terribly (ahem) weighty for the majority of readers.

From those two examples, it's obvious—to my eyes at least—the narrator wants to impart how frantic, how desperate this character is. Would I normally stop when reading those and think, Hmmm, who's giving me this evaluation? No. I'd just accept the narrator's words and know she's those two things. But it is a bit distancing. In combination with other obviously omniscient aspects of the opening, I come to the novel from an overhead view of this woman and her situation.

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm fine reading an engaging omniscient POV. The narrator of this particular novel isn't the sort to stand out with a personality of his/her own, but just from the opening, the narrator seems very present to me. I write all this now on a forum for writers, so I'm putting this into terms of another overhead view—of the processes and effects of particular things in writing.

For me, the issue of evaluation is an issue of voice.

Demesnedenoir has mentioned the issue of dialog a few times. Why are -ly adverbs more acceptable (from his POV) if they appear in dialogue? I guess I'll ask him that here, heh.

My guess is that it's excusable, characters are individuals, and individual voices will be colored in individual ways. They will have personality quirks, and more importantly, biases. These biases in speech are those same sort of habits of evaluation. Characters can't help being who they are and approaching things from a personalized POV. If Maggie says David, "desperately wanted" her phone number, she has a reason for stressing that desperation. In dialogue, differentiating characters, giving them personality, hinting at all these biases, is the point.

Comedy has been mentioned here. Again, a comedian delivering lines on a stage is the evaluator. The narrator. This doesn't mean that "most of the people you meet are intensely uninteresting" would always be out of place as a bit of narration in a novel. I could see something exactly like that appearing in a novel like The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. An omniscient narrator with a personality would get away with it. Or it could appear in a first-person narration: another case of obvious narration. Both are a lot like dialogue, only I'm on one side of the conversation and the narrator is on the other.

____

*For those curious, and for attribution, the novel is called Ordinary Monsters: A Novel.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

A bit of the -ly adverbs and dialogue comes from screenwriting, I suspect. Perhaps even some of the not using them otherwise also comes from there. But in general, some people use adverbs a lot when speaking, it's realistic. Like you know, like trying to write a classic Valley Girl dialogue, like, without the word "like", like you know what I mean? Gag me a spoon.

I suppose in some way, it's similar to how I have characters who use contractions all the time and others that don't. I also try not to use contractions when narrating from the POV of certain characters. People truncate their speech all the time. People do all kinds of weird things that can work in dialogue.

Another point is that -ly adverbs are often vague—the opposite of what people think they're doing with them—which works better in dialogue than in narration.

This might be similar to old-school novels, like oh, Dickens. Dickens has such a strong narrative omniscient voice that it feels like somebody is speaking to me, plus it all carries the tone of an era, so his adverbs disappear in the prose. Jane Austen uses way too many adverbs for my taste, but again, it just sort of fits that era and the narrative style. In this case, Dickens uses just a couple more adverbs per 10k than Stephen King, which kind of surprises me, except that despite King's advice against them, he uses them too much, heh heh.

I just glanced at Dickens' A Christmas Carol and two -ly adverbs popup on page 1, and I can't fault either over much, in particular, because of the humorous aspects and in part because of how they just roll with narrative style.

"Mind! I don't mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail."

"You will therefore permit me me to repeat emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail."

He is the story-teller, and you are reading this as if you're sitting beside the fire listening to a tale. It works. A bit like Carlin.

Sure, I've put it into an analytic framework. That's what we are doing here eh? Many readers won't have such a view of why they like or dislike a particular piece or a style of writing. Here's a quick example of an entire review of a fantasy novel* on Amazon:

This book was slow and not very well written. I gave it a try after reading some of the positive reviews, but the book just didn't do it for me.

The preview of the novel shows the author opening with a section that is obviously—to my eyes—omniscient, but trying a close view of a single character, especially as the writing advances. So maybe the author intended a more limited view? I don't know. The second paragraph comes to its conclusion via an -ly adverb—

....and frantically clawed her way forward again.

—and the next paragraph comes to its conclusion with another adverb used similarly:

....she rolled desperately in the straw away from the door and lay panting in the gloom as the train gathered speed.

I have no way of knowing if the disgruntled reader had any issue with those two adverbs. The novel overall has a 4.3/5 rating on Amazon, out of 1321 ratings. Maybe those two adverbs aren't terribly (ahem) weighty for the majority of readers.

From those two examples, it's obvious—to my eyes at least—the narrator wants to impart how frantic, how desperate this character is. Would I normally stop when reading those and think, Hmmm, who's giving me this evaluation? No. I'd just accept the narrator's words and know she's those two things. But it is a bit distancing. In combination with other obviously omniscient aspects of the opening, I come to the novel from an overhead view of this woman and her situation.

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm fine reading an engaging omniscient POV. The narrator of this particular novel isn't the sort to stand out with a personality of his/her own, but just from the opening, the narrator seems very present to me. I write all this now on a forum for writers, so I'm putting this into terms of another overhead view—of the processes and effects of particular things in writing.

For me, the issue of evaluation is an issue of voice.

Demesnedenoir has mentioned the issue of dialog a few times. Why are -ly adverbs more acceptable (from his POV) if they appear in dialogue? I guess I'll ask him that here, heh.

My guess is that it's excusable, characters are individuals, and individual voices will be colored in individual ways. They will have personality quirks, and more importantly, biases. These biases in speech are those same sort of habits of evaluation. Characters can't help being who they are and approaching things from a personalized POV. If Maggie says David, "desperately wanted" her phone number, she has a reason for stressing that desperation. In dialogue, differentiating characters, giving them personality, hinting at all these biases, is the point.

Comedy has been mentioned here. Again, a comedian delivering lines on a stage is the evaluator. The narrator. This doesn't mean that "most of the people you meet are intensely uninteresting" would always be out of place as a bit of narration in a novel. I could see something exactly like that appearing in a novel like The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. An omniscient narrator with a personality would get away with it. Or it could appear in a first-person narration: another case of obvious narration. Both are a lot like dialogue, only I'm on one side of the conversation and the narrator is on the other.

____

*For those curious, and for attribution, the novel is called Ordinary Monsters: A Novel.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I don't believe in "never" as a "rule" of writing. As writers our craft gives us all a toolbox, and everything from spelling to grammar (sort of lol) to pace and theme are all in our toolboxes. Adverbs are included. We can use anything in the toolbox. Nothing is off limits. But, that being said, craft teaches us how to use our tools, and understanding that is crucial to good writing. Think of how adverbs function and why so many writers are against them, and then write your story. I use adverbs when an adverb is called for, and it doesn't weaken my prose one bit.

 

[pmmg]

I wouldn't have thought there were be so much to say about adverbs, they must be peskily resilient.

 

[ThinkerX]

I wouldn't have thought there were be so much to say about adverbs, they must be peskily resilient.

I suspect your editor had a comment or five on adverbs. Did you run a search for 'ly' in your manuscripts? Adverbs have a way of sneaking into the text.

 

[pmmg]

They may have. I've not really looked at their comments yet other than cursorily. They will drain my energy for book 3 if I do. But, I'll get to that in my other thread. I don't think I am a heavy adverb user. Its not really in my natural writing voice. One of them said I use the word Only a lot, which is an LY word, but not an adverb.

 

[Finchbearer]

I mean this is an interesting thread…I didn’t know that about too many adverbs being a sign that your writing is basically not very good, from an editors pov anyway. I read through my own work, and being an amateur as I am, well there are quite a few, we have, in no particular order:

Gently
Loamy
Tantalisingly
Homely
Worldly
Seemingly

And there are more, but I might rewrite those sections as a challenge to use different words that communicate the same thing, and see if that makes my writing ‘better’.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I think it would be fun to write a novel with no adverbs at all, not just the -ly ones, and see if anybody notices, heh heh.

I don't believe in "never" as a "rule" of writing. As writers our craft gives us all a toolbox, and everything from spelling to grammar (sort of lol) to pace and theme are all in our toolboxes. Adverbs are included. We can use anything in the toolbox. Nothing is off limits. But, that being said, craft teaches us how to use our tools, and understanding that is crucial to good writing. Think of how adverbs function and why so many writers are against them, and then write your story. I use adverbs when an adverb is called for, and it doesn't weaken my prose one bit.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

It was Toni Morrison who doesn't use adverbs when writing at the top of her game, though I don't have the exact quote. Her quote does utilize one of Rowling's favorite type of adverbs, the kind found in dialogue tags.

"I never say 'She says softly'... "If it's not already soft, you know, I have to leave a lot of space around it so a reader can hear that it's soft."

Morrison uses fewer -ly adverbs than Hemingway, as an aside.

 

[pmmg]

Rowling has a reputation for not using adverbs?

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The opposite. I think it was King that said Rowling "never met an adverb that she didn't like" heh heh.

Rowling isn't far from average fan fiction with 140 per 10k words in the Potter books, while EL James is almost dead-on equal with average fan fiction at 155 per 10k. Fan Fic average tested was 154, I think. Rowling also uses a lot of dialogue tag adverbs, which is more common in MG and YA works, which is also pretty much loathed by any reviewer "literary" in nature.

Rowling has a reputation for not using adverbs?

 

[pmmg]

I believe the road to hell is paved with adverbs, and I will shout it from the rooftops.
Stephen King

Adjectives are the sugar of literature and adverbs the salt.
Henry James

If you are using an adverb, you have got the verb wrong.
Kingsley Amis

The secret of good writing is to strip every sentence to its cleanest components. Every word that serves no function, every long word that could be a short word, every adverb that carries the same meaning that’s already in the verb, every passive construction that leaves the reader unsure of who is doing what—these are the thousand and one adulterants that weaken the strength of a sentence. And they usually occur in proportion to the education and rank.
William Zinsser

Cross out as many adjectives and adverbs as you can. ... It is comprehensible when I write: "The man sat on the grass," because it is clear and does not detain one's attention. On the other hand, it is difficult to figure out and hard on the brain if I write: "The tall, narrow-chested man of medium height and with a red beard sat down on the green grass that had already been trampled down by the pedestrians, sat down silently, looking around timidly and fearfully." The brain can't grasp all that at once, and art must be grasped at once, instantaneously.
Anton Chekhov

Empty your knapsack of all adjectives, adverbs and clauses that slow your stride and weaken your pace. Travel light. Remember the most memorable sentences in the English language are also the shortest: "The King is dead" and "Jesus wept."
Bill Moyers

I am dead to adverbs; they cannot excite me. To misplace an adverb is a thing which I am able to do with frozen indifference; it can never give me a pang. There are subtleties which I cannot master at all - they confuse me, they mean absolutely nothing to me - and this adverb plague is one of them.
Mark Twain

Never use an adverb to modify the verb 'said' . . . he admonished gravely. To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange.
Elmore Leonard

Surely: the adverb of a man without an argument.
Edward St Aubyn

Every adjective and adverb is worth five cents. Every verb is worth fifty cents.
Mary Oliver

I’m convinced that fear is at the root of most bad writing. Dumbo got airborne with the help of a magic feather; you may feel the urge to grasp a passive verb or one of those nasty adverbs for the same reason. Just remember before you do that Dumbo didn’t need the feather; the magic was in him.
Stephen King

The words I overuse are all adverbs.
Sam Shepard

 

[pmmg]

The opposite. I think it was King that said Rowling "never met an adverb that she didn't like" heh heh.

Rowling isn't far from average fan fiction with 140 per 10k words in the Potter books, while EL James is almost dead-on equal with average fan fiction at 155 per 10k. Fan Fic average tested was 154, I think. Rowling also uses a lot of dialogue tag adverbs, which is more common in MG and YA works, which is also pretty much loathed by any reviewer "literary" in nature.

I did not notice, but I was not really into HP much. If she was, I would expect a generation is coming that uses them more.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

My experience with Potter came before the movies when I bought the first book for my niece, I think there were 3 books out at the time. I read the first chapter or two, grimacing, and thought, "Yup! YA." I tried one more time to read them, and no. Never happen. I am clueless as to why so many adults loved the book. I love the fact they brought so many youngsters into big fantasy books, but that's about it.

Use them more? That's already here, I'm sure, with so many successful indie books and crap like 50 Shades. But, as I've said before, adverbs are a staple of MG and YA. The best will always learn to write better. The rest will plug along.

I did not notice, but I was not really into HP much. If she was, I would expect a generation is coming that uses them more.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I still find the level of King's usage of adverbs stunning, considering his conviction on their vile nature.

I believe the road to hell is paved with adverbs, and I will shout it from the rooftops.
Stephen King

Adjectives are the sugar of literature and adverbs the salt.
Henry James

If you are using an adverb, you have got the verb wrong.
Kingsley Amis

The secret of good writing is to strip every sentence to its cleanest components. Every word that serves no function, every long word that could be a short word, every adverb that carries the same meaning that’s already in the verb, every passive construction that leaves the reader unsure of who is doing what—these are the thousand and one adulterants that weaken the strength of a sentence. And they usually occur in proportion to the education and rank.
William Zinsser

Cross out as many adjectives and adverbs as you can. ... It is comprehensible when I write: "The man sat on the grass," because it is clear and does not detain one's attention. On the other hand, it is difficult to figure out and hard on the brain if I write: "The tall, narrow-chested man of medium height and with a red beard sat down on the green grass that had already been trampled down by the pedestrians, sat down silently, looking around timidly and fearfully." The brain can't grasp all that at once, and art must be grasped at once, instantaneously.
Anton Chekhov

Empty your knapsack of all adjectives, adverbs and clauses that slow your stride and weaken your pace. Travel light. Remember the most memorable sentences in the English language are also the shortest: "The King is dead" and "Jesus wept."
Bill Moyers

I am dead to adverbs; they cannot excite me. To misplace an adverb is a thing which I am able to do with frozen indifference; it can never give me a pang. There are subtleties which I cannot master at all - they confuse me, they mean absolutely nothing to me - and this adverb plague is one of them.
Mark Twain

Never use an adverb to modify the verb 'said' . . . he admonished gravely. To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange.
Elmore Leonard

Surely: the adverb of a man without an argument.
Edward St Aubyn

Every adjective and adverb is worth five cents. Every verb is worth fifty cents.
Mary Oliver

I’m convinced that fear is at the root of most bad writing. Dumbo got airborne with the help of a magic feather; you may feel the urge to grasp a passive verb or one of those nasty adverbs for the same reason. Just remember before you do that Dumbo didn’t need the feather; the magic was in him.
Stephen King

The words I overuse are all adverbs.
Sam Shepard

 

[pmmg]

I am not sure Mr. King is one with a lot of virtues. I actually cut out some of his quotes for that as I figured he already had enough representation.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Rowling isn't far from average fan fiction with 140 per 10k words in the Potter books, while EL James is almost dead-on equal with average fan fiction at 155 per 10k. Fan Fic average tested was 154, I think. Rowling also uses a lot of dialogue tag adverbs, which is more common in MG and YA works, which is also pretty much loathed by any reviewer "literary" in nature.

This actually does raise another interesting thought on adverbs. Namely that there may very well be a differenec (and a big one) between what reviewers and critics thinks is important and what readers consider important.

Just to put things in perspective, JK Rowling has sold more books than all the writers in pmmg 's list of authors complaining about adverbs combined. Which includes Stephen King's 300 million or so books. And while EL James "only" sold 100 million books, compared to King's 300 million, she did so with only 3 books instead of 77 of King.

Who is right then? I would argue the reader is always right. And while both Rowling and James happened to get lucky and be at the right place at the right time with their books, it's hard to argue with 700 million books sold... It might just be that a lot of readers don't mind fan fiction level prose if it tells a good story. It might even be a lot more accessible than a lot of other prose.

All that just to say that we might very well be worrying about adverbs way to much. And that the most important thing is to tell a good story. Yes, fewer adverbs can help there, but it's by no means a guarantee. And having them doesn't stop people from enjoying your book, and they might even help.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

This is all about TA and no one claims that adverbs are the be all/end all of writing: Rowling is YA and James is Erotica Romance, two TA not known for being "literary". In the case of Rowling, she captured the Zeitgeist and is, otherwise, a strong writer. James, well, James writes in a forgiving genre. The rise of YA and Fan Fic are no doubt driving a tolerance for adverbs in pop culture, but these tend to be outliers.

Adverbs do matter whether people know or it not, or if writers are even willing to accept/believe it or not. Adverbs are a symptom of bad writing, not the disease. Having a headache doesn't necessarily mean you have a brain tumor. Other factors can outweigh adverbs in any case, so if you think you're writing to the correct TA for heavy adverb use and/or you've got once in a generation story idea and the right marketing campaign to drive it, go for it. If you want to up your odds of success and greatness, learn to write with fewer adverbs. At the least, understand why they suck in general, so that you can use them in specific cases without them drawing attention to themselves.

Adverbs, outside of MG and YA, will never help you, but they can hurt you. Should you worry about them? No. Should you use them to learn to write better? Yes. They are great tools for pointing out weak spots.

This actually does raise another interesting thought on adverbs. Namely that there may very well be a differenec (and a big one) between what reviewers and critics thinks is important and what readers consider important.

Just to put things in perspective, JK Rowling has sold more books than all the writers in pmmg 's list of authors complaining about adverbs combined. Which includes Stephen King's 300 million or so books. And while EL James "only" sold 100 million books, compared to King's 300 million, she did so with only 3 books instead of 77 of King.

Who is right then? I would argue the reader is always right. And while both Rowling and James happened to get lucky and be at the right place at the right time with their books, it's hard to argue with 700 million books sold... It might just be that a lot of readers don't mind fan fiction level prose if it tells a good story. It might even be a lot more accessible than a lot of other prose.

All that just to say that we might very well be worrying about adverbs way to much. And that the most important thing is to tell a good story. Yes, fewer adverbs can help there, but it's by no means a guarantee. And having them doesn't stop people from enjoying your book, and they might even help.