Twisting mythical creatures; how far?

[Fyri]

This thought came during the discussion of beauty and how many people write orcs differently these days.

Back when vampires were all the rage because of Twilight, we saw all sorts of renditions. In researching the creature and the history for my own needs, I found out that the word vampire actually comes partially from Vrykolakas, which can mean ghoul, werewolf, and/or vampire!

Thus, we have your mainstream vampire (coffin, bat, sunlight burns, suck blood, no garlic), but we also have thousands of original variations, some leaning closer to the mixed origins.

Fae also see this. Is fae a single species or a multitude of races? We can see anything from tiny pixie tinkerbells to the Seelie and Unseelie to tall nature-bound elves. I've seen arguements that tiny dragonfly fairies are not fairies. Then you have faerie vs fairy vs pixie, but one may also argue it's all the same thing. Maleficent is also technically a faerie, though looks more demon than traditional faerie.

Perhaps this is because the origins of many myths are more clouded than they are defined.

Thus, we pose the question to discuss:

How far can you twist a known mythical creature until it is unrecognizable as that known creature?

But perhaps that in itself is too vague. Does each creature have a unique limit for twisting their terms? Surely dragons are more defined than the fae. Or are they? We have eastern and western dragons. Water, fire, poison... (side comment: Why the heck is Charizard not a dragon?)

This could probably be a whole college course.

Also up for discussion here, since it was specific to the other thread: What makes an orc an orc?

 

[Orc Knight]

Also up for discussion here, since it was specific to the other thread: What makes an orc an orc?

So, unless someone gets in before me, to make an answer a complete non-answer from the local orc obsessed guy.

Honestly, I've kind of given up on trying to define what makes an orc a 'true orc' these days. As pointed out in the other thread, well, they've come in such an assortment and now they hang out in all parts of the fantasy genre. Even the general 'standard' of green or greenish skin and tusks can be swapped out for horns and the like. Then there's the piggy and boar style orcs, another classic staple. And as I mentioned previously, well, Warcrafts buff boi's and girls.

Add in the somewhat common connection to goblins (who can be counted in the fey family) and their own variations, from Butchers ninja goblins to the gobbos that kicked around by their big orky cousins. Even trolls sometimes arise as a part of the family, again, depending on if the authors or writers or world builders wanted a connection. It's a lot and given orcs may as well started as a type of undead, well, there's only the standard set in our head.

 

[Aldarion]

Basically, you have "basic tropes" which each creature should fulfill. So for example, if something drinks blood and is sensitive to sunlight, everybody will immediately recognize it as a vampire - even if something in question is a kitchen table.

And Charizard is a dragon. You cannot convince me otherwise.

EDIT:

Also up for discussion here, since it was specific to the other thread: What makes an orc an orc?

Demonic humanoid that is not actually a demon. That's about the extent of a possible definition, I think.

 

[Fyri]

So, unless someone gets in before me, to make an answer a complete non-answer from the local orc obsessed guy.

Honestly, I've kind of given up on trying to define what makes an orc a 'true orc' these days. As pointed out in the other thread, well, they've come in such an assortment and now they hang out in all parts of the fantasy genre. Even the general 'standard' of green or greenish skin and tusks can be swapped out for horns and the like. Then there's the piggy and boar style orcs, another classic staple. And as I mentioned previously, well, Warcrafts buff boi's and girls.

Add in the somewhat common connection to goblins (who can be counted in the fey family) and their own variations, from Butchers ninja goblins to the gobbos that kicked around by their big orky cousins. Even trolls sometimes arise as a part of the family, again, depending on if the authors or writers or world builders wanted a connection. It's a lot and given orcs may as well started as a type of undead, well, there's only the standard set in our head.

Hmm, they do seem to have some things in common though!

We don't really see any slender, skinny orcs, right? So, perhaps they must muscular and somewhat animalistic?

 

[Finchbearer]

This is certainly thesis material, and this subject takes up much of my time as a writer and I only know a surface level amount - good job there are people who literally have done their thesis on various Otherworldy creatures then isn’t it?

Research for me gives me a foundation from which to work on, so if I am researching the origins of vampires for example, then I can make an informed choice as to how much or how little I decide to change that original concept, and hopefully that can also can be seen by the discerning reader too.

I’m going to have a think and come back with more!

 

[Orc Knight]

We don't really see any slender, skinny orcs, right? So, perhaps they must muscular and somewhat animalistic.

Sometimes, but it's rarer. And if there's skinny orcs, it's usually a social and societal thing that means they're likely on the starving end of the scale. And if they're part of the warrior obsessed cultures that go the Sparta route, the runtlings and the like are unlikely to survive. Again, I can't rule out that some one out there has made skinny orcs in their own media form. Haven't seen them that much though.

 

[Aldarion]

We don't really see any slender, skinny orcs, right? So, perhaps they must muscular and somewhat animalistic?

Sometimes, but it's rarer. And if there's skinny orcs, it's usually a social and societal thing that means they're likely on the starving end of the scale. And if they're part of the warrior obsessed cultures that go the Sparta route, the runtlings and the like are unlikely to survive. Again, I can't rule out that some one out there has made skinny orcs in their own media form. Haven't seen them that much though.

We do see them in Tolkien. But then common culture separated "Orcs" and "Goblins", which in Tolkien were one and the same, into different subspecies.

Fantasy orcs are often closer to Tolkien's trolls than to Tolkien's orcs...

 

[pmmg]

My orcs have blue skin, pop out of bottles and grant three wishes.

 

[Aldarion]

My orcs have blue skin, pop out of bottles and grant three wishes.

That isn't an orc, then. Sounds more like a case of champagne gone good.

 

[Queshire]

That isn't an orc, then. Sounds more like a case of champagne gone good.

Well it's PMMG so that's the joke.

Still, it'd be pretty easy to trace your Orcs back to the Roman god of the Underworld Orcus and have them be a type of blue skinned underworld spirit capable of calling up gems & gold hidden deep underground or the forgotten treasures of the dead.

 

[Fyri]

My orcs have blue skin, pop out of bottles and grant three wishes.

...ಠ ಠ Think that is just... genie or djinn...

 

[Rexenm]

There is usually one thing that they cannot lose.. Vampires blood suck. Faries fly. Orcs are ugly. God knows the rest, that’s what makes it fun. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Queshire]

Things change over time. Much ado was made about sparkly vampires, but even OG Dracula was a very different creature from the older folkloric vampires. (I could also mention the change from Greek Zeus to Roman Jupiter, but that seems like something of a low hanging fruit.)

Orcs are fascinating just because how easy it is to trace how they have developed over the years.

It was mentioned over in the other thread that Tolkien Orcs were indistinguishable from his Goblins. Actually Tolkien said in one of his letters that as far as he was concerned Orc was just a different translation for Goblin.

Early D&D was responsible for splitting Orc & Goblin into two different categories. They're also responsible for beefing up Orcs. (One story I heard was that there were both Half-Ogres and Half-Orcs as playable races, but the Half-Ogres were too powerful. They got rid of Half-Ogres, but players still wanted to play a BIG race which meant that Half-Orcs became the BIG race as 'close enough.' Full Orcs then became BIG as a consequence.)

When D&D was looking to get published in the UK they got into contact with the guys that would be eventually responsible for creating Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k. Warhammer codified Orcs as BIG, but was also responsible for establishing them as green skinned.

The Warcraft games were originally going to be Warhammer games, but when that fell through they made it its own thing. They kept Orcs as BIG and green, but when it became clear that Orcs were popular among players as a faction they wanted to move them away from being the designated Always Chaotic Evil race. They introduced aspects such as being honorable warriors with a focus on shamanism which culminated in their portrayal in WoW. Now we've got Orcs as BIG, Green and Proud Warrior Race guys.

Many of these changes have since been backported into portrayals of Orcs in modern day versions of D&D.

HOWEVER! over in Japan there's an entirely separate line of development.

The Dragon Quest series of games, granddaddy of turn based RPGs, has an incredible amount of influence over there. I would call it similar to WoW over here.

The main character for that series (who is also responsible for Dragonball & Dragonball Z) presumably focused on the more... bestial aspect of D&D style Orcs and combined it with his own tendency to draw animal people to create Orcs with porcine or otherwise boar heads. Many Orcs descended from that line are BIG, may or may not be Proud Warrior Race guys, but have a greater emphasis on being pig elements than being green.

 

[ThinkerX]

We have Tolkien to thank for taking mythological beings and sorting (some of) them into distinct races - goblins, trolls, dwarves, elves, and even treants. That was impressive, considering what a disparate mess those old myths and folktales are. He also pretty much invents orcs.

Then D&D came along and further elaborated on these races, bringing them closer to what we see in today's fantasy.

I wrestled with the 'mythological creatures versus present-day fantasy races' issue in my world-building. I wanted to make them recognizable yet distinctive, plus, I wanted a plausible solution as to why some of them were 'evil.' There was also the issue of low-tech humans on other planets to contend with. Enter the ancient aliens.

The ancient aliens terraformed distant worlds in ages past. Then they visited other planets, including Earth, and brought groups of humans and others to these planets. Goblins were among the races transplanted.

In my world's, goblins are short, green-skinned humanoid creatures. Goblin females outnumber the males by a hundred to one. Goblins are hatched, not born. This sets up a dynamic where male goblins will go to great lengths to impress the females, including murdering rivals and raiding the neighbors. With civilized goblins, these tendencies become formal or game-like.

The ancient aliens for reasons known to them, decided to 'improve' the basic goblin, making them stronger, tougher, and more prone to violence. Enter hobgoblins.

Dwarves were a human offshoot - perhaps one that originated on Earth - who were modified to be miners and tinkerers - their smaller size made them able to fit into tight spaces. These modifications also gave them a longer lifespan.

Elves are a sort of hybrid that came about from the ancient aliens meddling in the etheric realms. They attracted the attention of a race of spirits, and by design or mishap, trapped them in human bodies. The spirits modified these host bodies, giving them long life spans and an innate knack for magic.

Both dwarves and elves can breed with humans.

Rachasa, a race of savage cat-like humanoids, is another hybrid creation of the ancient aliens. They are part human and part something else. Human/rachasa offspring are possible, but rare.

Shapeshifters almost didn't make it - but they are all over the mythology in different forms, and I do have the demon star that shows up every ten or fifteen decades causing havoc, so...

 

[Queshire]

Orcs are ugly.

Yeah, there's probably a few websites you want to avoid if you plan on sticking with that.

 

[Fyri]

There is usually one thing that they cannot lose.. Vampires blood suck. Faries fly. Orcs are ugly. God knows the rest, that’s what makes it fun. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Not all fairies fly, though!

I think it is more that they all share an essence.

Is it possible that not all vampires suck blood, but some rather suck energy? They do seem to have that general staple. Suck an integral part of a person's lifeforce.

Though perhaps faerie/fairy/fae must have some connection to magical/supernatural birth and ability.

I need to read Legends and Lattes! I can imagine ways an orc might be considered beautiful, but I have yet to see it.

 

[Queshire]

Is it possible that not all vampires suck blood, but some rather suck energy?

The Jiangshi, often translated as the Chinese holling vampire, is one such example. Instead of blood it absorbs qi.

Still, for me, instead of a universal trait that unites all varieties of a given creature I say that what makes an orc an orc or a vampire a vampire can be summed up simply. It's ultimately, "what you can get away with."

 

[Fyri]

The Jiangshi, often translated as the Chinese holling vampire, is one such example. Instead of blood it absorbs qi.

Still, for me, instead of a universal trait that unites all varieties of a given creature I say that what makes an orc an orc or a vampire a vampire can be summed up simply. It's ultimately, "what you can get away with."

I wonder...

Oh! This is Centaurworld!

I was gonna see if one could essentially slap the word orc on a vastly different being, like a pixie or mermaid, and make it work. Centaurworld makes "centaurs" out of literally everything. Leaftaurs to whaletaurs.

I think it really is the essence that must still be carried. And there one would have to ask, what is the essence of X mythical being and how do I incorporate it into my being to make it work? Or what is the essence of X being that I must not lose if I want to "get away with" using the recognizable word? Hypothetically.

 

[mbox]

What I like to do is create huminoid-ish races based on monsters. So, for example, my phoenixes appear like elves, but with huge, coppery wings, and the ability to produce fire. Of course, they immolate when they are killed and appear as babies in from their own ashes. I did a similar thing with manticores...but they were still pretty monstrous.

 

[pmmg]

Is not a joke. It simply pointing out that if your definition is expanded to include everything, it becomes nothing.

And it is asking the question, these creature you admire enough to want to copy, what are they if you have changed them so much they do not resemble the originals? Orcs don't come from Orcus. They come Tolkien.

Many people have come along and changed them somewhat, but they still stem from the base. No matter how you make your orc, or phoenix, or vampire, or djinn, and whatever, they will be compared to the original, and have to remain a good fit, and will always be read with, its this creature, only with some differences. But if you don't respect where they came from, and think you can just do as you will, you risk not being well received in the communities you wish to be a part of.

Orcs are not blue and don't grant wishes. Sure I could write them that way. Even make reasons why it might be true, but why? Why would I want them to be orc when they are clearly something else? If I love orcs enough to want them in the story, I ought to have some consideration of who and what they are. An attitude of anything I want goes, well...sure, you can put anything to paper, but you may diminish the thing you admired if you expand them too far.


Anyway...not aimed at anyone in particular, just to the world at large. If you come in and say, look at my orcs, they are better because they have... (tails, wings, breath fire, play lutes and write poetry...), I'm gonna be thinking of the above.