What could you call journeymen....

[Rosemary Tea]

I like maester also. It has a fairly common currency in fantasy and is nearly always tied to magic.

BTW, historically there was a sharp awareness of the differences between apprentice and servant. In some legal records we see complaints lodged by the parents of the apprentice claiming that the master (or his wife) treated the youth "more as a servant than an apprentice." That was said without further explanation, implying all concerned knew the differences quite well.

And that gives us another pertinent detail, too: the apprentice's parents were aware of what was going on and looking out for his interests, and they could reasonably expect the law to intervene. Which is why there was a complaint lodged in the first place.

 

[skip.knox]

Yep. In Augsburg at least, issues like this would go first to the guild (which had a body for reviewing complaints) and then could be appealed to the City Council. Augsburg was a Free Imperial City, but I'd bet gold florins that the practice was similar in other towns in Germany and Italy. Less sure about France or elsewhere.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

How about substituting 'worker' for 'man'? As in journeyworker and craftsworker. 'Journeyworker' is not graceful, but it is honest, it preserves the history and logic of the progression 'apprentice to journey(whatever) to master,' and maybe it clarifies something about the function and purpose of these categories, which 'person' doesn't really accomplish.

Journeyworker is rather unwieldly. I suppose it would be an accurate description of a crafter who's at that stage of their career, but it really doesn't seem accurate for the mages, when I think about it. Their journeyman phase is much more similar to graduate school with lots of field work than to journeymanship in the trades.

I'm playing with journeyer, and with foreign words.

 

[Prince of Spires]

One thing I just noticed with substituting words is that it can anoy people. I'm reading The Shadow of the Gods at the moment, which is a lovely book. However, the writer keeps referring to someones brain as their "thought cage". And while I'm sure it's very in-world, it just bugs me every time I see it written. The first time it's fine and a quirky bit of worldbuilding. But the novelty quickly wears of and I just wish it would say brain or something similar. It draws me out of the story each time I see it (and that's surprisingly often...).

Same with something like Journeyworker. I can imagine the first time I would read it it would be a fine, if quirky bit of worldbuilding. But by the third or fourth time I saw it I would simply be anoyed by it and would wish the writer would simply use the real word for it.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

One thing I just noticed with substituting words is that it can anoy people. I'm reading The Shadow of the Gods at the moment, which is a lovely book. However, the writer keeps referring to someones brain as their "thought cage". And while I'm sure it's very in-world, it just bugs me every time I see it written. The first time it's fine and a quirky bit of worldbuilding. But the novelty quickly wears of and I just wish it would say brain or something similar. It draws me out of the story each time I see it (and that's surprisingly often...).

Same with something like Journeyworker. I can imagine the first time I would read it it would be a fine, if quirky bit of worldbuilding. But by the third or fourth time I saw it I would simply be anoyed by it and would wish the writer would simply use the real word for it.

Fair point. But what would you think of substituting a word like journeyer or reiser?

And do you feel it's different if the replaced word is a word we regularly use than if it's not? Brain is a regularly used word in the real world. Journeyman is not. The guild structure it goes with is obsolete. So much so that guilds and apprentices, journeymen, and masters are mainly associated, in the popular imagination, with pseudo-medieval fantasy fiction, and of those three ranks, journeyman is the least known. As someone pointed out up thread, the average reader would have to have it explained to them what a journeyman is.

 

[Mad Swede]

Fair point. But what would you think of substituting a word like journeyer or reiser?

And do you feel it's different if the replaced word is a word we regularly use than if it's not? Brain is a regularly used word in the real world. Journeyman is not. The guild structure it goes with is obsolete. So much so that guilds and apprentices, journeymen, and masters are mainly associated, in the popular imagination, with pseudo-medieval fantasy fiction, and of those three ranks, journeyman is the least known. As someone pointed out up thread, the average reader would have to have it explained to them what a journeyman is.

Except that journeymen are not unkown even now. Yes, in the English speaking world they are unusual, but they still exist in quite large parts of western Europe. And apprentices are most definitely well-known, especially in the UK where they are still seen as the way to start a career as a skilled craftsman/worker.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Except that journeymen are not unkown even now.

Not unknown, but rare, especially in the English speaking world, which is what I'm writing for. Journeyman isn't a word most people hear or use on a regular basis. Brain is.

 

[skip.knox]

I like reiser, not least because I do this sort of thing a lot in Altearth. For many, it will look like a made-up word, so you give it the usual treatment--an explanation plus a reminder or two. [Aside: I just saw an example of this. I'm re-reading LotR and just read Helm's Deep, where we are introduced to the Uruk-Hai. Tolkien has them challenged--by Aragorn, I think--and three times they declare "we are the fighting Uruk-Hai." It's neatly done. We get repetition of a formula, which is in tune with the epic storytelling approach, plus we learn a new name. Usually you don't do the reminders in successive paragraphs (!), but it worked here.]

Back to our post, already in progress.

For some readers, though, the word will be known. They will see you have chosen a word from another language and will nod knowingly. Readers like to believe they've noticed something, especially if it's off over there in a corner,

 

[Mad Swede]

Not unknown, but rare, especially in the English speaking world, which is what I'm writing for. Journeyman isn't a word most people hear or use on a regular basis. Brain is.

Except that you're not just writing for the English speaking world. What a lot of people don't always appreciate is that relatively little English language SF and fantasy books get translated into other languages. Most of the stuff we get here in Sweden and the other Nordic countries is written in English, because the market isn't large enough to justify translating the books. Yes, you get more translations into French, spanish and German - but only if your books sell well. So don't assume that your readers are only in the English speaking world.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Yes, you get more translations into French, spanish and German - but only if your books sell well. So don't assume that your readers are only in the English speaking world.

Even if they're not, they'll have to be literate in English to read my story. I'm under no illusion that it will do well enough to be translated.

Is it really that much of a stretch for people with English as their second (or more) language to understand the rarity or commonality of certain words in English?

 

[Mad Swede]

Even if they're not, they'll have to be literate in English to read my story. I'm under no illusion that it will do well enough to be translated.

You'd be surprised quite how well we foreigners read (and understand) English...

Is it really that much of a stretch for people with English as their second (or more) language to understand the rarity or commonality of certain words in English?

Yes, it is. It isn't just a matter of linguistic knowledge, it's also a matter of culture. A German, reading your book, would know exactly what a journeyman is, they'd know what an apprentice is, and they'd understand what the progression from apprentice to master craftsman is and what it involves. And they wouldn't give a damn that some ignorant Yankee had no idea what a journeyman is or what it means (although any American who has read the late Tony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential will know).

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Then I guess I'll show what an ignorant Yankee I am.

But all this goes back to Prince of Spires saying he found it annoying when a common word was replaced with something else. My question is whether replacing journeyman would be as annoying as replacing a word like brain. Or, for that matter, whether everyone would find that annoying in the first place.

 

[Mad Swede]

Then I guess I'll show what an ignorant Yankee I am.

But all this goes back to Prince of Spires saying he found it annoying when a common word was replaced with something else. My question is whether replacing journeyman would be as annoying as replacing a word like brain. Or, for that matter, whether everyone would find that annoying in the first place.

You know, I think you're tying yourself into an unneccesary linguistic knot again. I'd just use the word journeyman and let your more ignorant readers do a bit of work and learn something.

Maybe it's because I'm so severely dyslexic, but I detest it when authors dumb down their language because they think we readers won't understand. If I've gone to the trouble of buying your book and then settled down to read it then you can expect me to put some effort into reading it - and I expect you, the author, to deliver a literate book with good characterisation and plotting. If that means a few obscure words with an exact meaning appropriate to the story then fine.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Fair point. But what would you think of substituting a word like journeyer or reiser?

And do you feel it's different if the replaced word is a word we regularly use than if it's not? Brain is a regularly used word in the real world. Journeyman is not. The guild structure it goes with is obsolete. So much so that guilds and apprentices, journeymen, and masters are mainly associated, in the popular imagination, with pseudo-medieval fantasy fiction, and of those three ranks, journeyman is the least known. As someone pointed out up thread, the average reader would have to have it explained to them what a journeyman is.

I'm not sure how it would play out with more uncommon words. It's hard to say without reading a story with it. It's more something I just noticed this week which I felt was a good adition to the discussion here.

I personally think that I would get annoyed by journeyperson (or something similar). It would very quickly feel like someone trying too hard to be politically correct. Of course, that's just my opinion, there may very well be readers who think the exact opposite. Journeyer feels a bit weird. It does have a bit of the calling a rabbit a smeerp feel to it. Reiser I would be fine with I think (assuming your setting is at least vaguely germanic). Being dutch I recognise the root of the word, and if your reisers actually travel then that would feel fine I think.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

You know, I think you're tying yourself into an unneccesary linguistic knot again. I'd just use the word journeyman and let your more ignorant readers do a bit of work and learn something.

Maybe it's because I'm so severely dyslexic, but I detest it when authors dumb down their language because they think we readers won't understand. If I've gone to the trouble of buying your book and then settled down to read it then you can expect me to put some effort into reading it - and I expect you, the author, to deliver a literate book with good characterisation and plotting. If that means a few obscure words with an exact meaning appropriate to the story then fine.

A few obscure words with exact meanings appropriate to the story is what I'm going for. Not dumbing it down. Although it would be good to work in a brief mention of what I'm talking about, maybe through dialog between characters.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

I'm not sure how it would play out with more uncommon words. It's hard to say without reading a story with it. It's more something I just noticed this week which I felt was a good adition to the discussion here.

I personally think that I would get annoyed by journeyperson (or something similar). It would very quickly feel like someone trying too hard to be politically correct. Of course, that's just my opinion, there may very well be readers who think the exact opposite. Journeyer feels a bit weird. It does have a bit of the calling a rabbit a smeerp feel to it. Reiser I would be fine with I think (assuming your setting is at least vaguely germanic). Being dutch I recognise the root of the word, and if your reisers actually travel then that would feel fine I think.

Journeyperson does feel like trying too hard, which is why I don't want to use it.

The reisers (if I decide to call them that) do travel some. At the very least, they get some cross training in other shops. For mages, that stage means a little schooling and a lot of field work, so definitely traveling.

Does reiser mean travel, then, or is the word more associated with work? Journeyman apparently has two possible etymologies: journey in the sense of travel, because journeymen did travel, or the French for "daily," because they were day laborers paid daily wages. The second case speaks to the work aspect of their situation; the first, to the traveling part.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I don't know the exact etymology of reiser, since I'm not a linguist. However, the (modern) Dutch word for travelling is Reizen, and a traveller is a Reiziger. They feel pretty similar to me.

So even if the origin of the word is very different, reiser feels like it comes from someone who travels for some reason. As such, if it's someone who travels from job to job (if not from location to location) to complete his training by working for different masters then I can see it fit.

 

[Suli]

I stumbled upon this thread searching for the exact same thing. I went with the following ranks; Novice, Apprentice, Initiate, Seeker ans Adept.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

I stumbled upon this thread searching for the exact same thing. I went with the following ranks; Novice, Apprentice, Initiate, Seeker ans Adept.

You have more ranks than I do. Interesting what you did with them.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

journeyman in Frisian is reisman, which has a nice sound, and reiser is a decent substitute.

How is reisman pronounced? Does it sound like rise man, raise man, or reese man?

I've been hearing it in my mind as rise man, which would make reiser sound like riser. Could be a good wordplay: the reiser is rising in their career.

But none of the translations sites I've been able to find have a pronunciation guide for that particular word, so I could have it all wrong.