What do you equate to success?

[Caged Maiden]

I've found myself in a bit of a slump as of late and I often wonder where I went wrong, or whether in fact I have. I thought I'd feel some amount of success at this point in my journey, but it seems at the crest of every hill, I only see more hills in the distance.

My question for you, dear scribes, is what do you consider success?

Is it finishing your first publishable short story? Writing your first whole novel? Finishing that trilogy that's been floating in your brain since Middle School?

How do you judge your own measure of success and what are some of your stepping-stones to success? DO you ever really reach the finish line in this craft?

 

[ThinkerX]

Been wondering about this myself lately, though from a slightly different perspective. Put simply, most of my works are on the shorter side, quick to write and easy to edit. Looking through the likes of 'Asimov's' and 'Fantasy and Science Fiction' I note that some of my tales, properly revised, are at least as good as those. And F&SF is one of the premier magazines in this genre. So, at this point, for the shorter works, I am defining success as getting published in that magazine or one like it.

For the longer tales...well, to me they seem to take a small eternity to write and a longer eternity to edit, and I have a pile of unfinished works demonstrating this. Both 'Labyrinth' and 'Empire' have been in the rewrite/edit stage for years now, though the former is close to finished. And once finished...

...well, I don't see much being put out by the big traditional print publishers anymore. So small press? For print versions that's pretty much specialty mail order, at least around here. Self-pub? That means 'electronic version' which means competing with 30 or 40 thousand other self published books.

Right now, I'm going to define success here as getting published by a small press. Just work my way right down the line. I am encouraged with the positive vote the opening to "Labyrinth' faired at 'Flogging the Quill' something few other entries manage.

But mostly, once 'Labyrinth' and its sequel is wrapped up, I plan to stick mostly with shorter works, usually under 10,000 words, with the occasional venture to the 30,000 - 40,000 word range.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

For me there are two types of success. The first type is success by external validation. The second is success by internal effort.

External validation is important and generally what people think of when they hear success. However, using this method alone is problematic. This method is getting published or getting people to like and buy your books. This success relies heavily upon the choices of others. This reliance is its blessing and curse. It is a blessing because to the outside observer it's easy to point to. And it gives one a sense of pride that someone besides me liked what I did. It is problematic because it is ultimately uncontrollable. There is no accounting for taste. What someone liked won't be what you like. And there is no accounting for your own blood sweat and tears. This is a larger problem earlier in the process of becoming a good writer, because you generally aren't good enough to be published and most won't like your works.

However,if this definition of success is tempered with internal measures of success, a writer will find success. Internal controls are things like finishing a project, reaching a word count that day, sending out query letters, and in general doing things that make you a writer. These are controllable, for the most part. It's a choice to get these things done. Not much can stop a dedicated writer from finishing their project except themselves and their excuses. The problem with using only this method is that it can be a smokescreen to hide a writer's failures. A writer can reach a word count, but it could be crap. A writer can edit but it may not be good. A writer can send a letter and it may not be a good faith effort.

I define success both ways. For daily progress I use internal measures. Ultimately I use external. It keeps from being overwhelmed with my long standing lack of success and from being overconfident in my mediocrity.

Also, sorry for the typos. I used my phone to write this message.

 

[Philip Overby]

I don't view success broadly I guess. I view it by each small victory I achieve. If my goal is to finish a first draft and I finish it, then that's one success. If it's to get a piece published and it happens, then that's a success.

I think viewing writing as if it has some kind of end goal can drive people insane. I'm always learning, changing, trying new things. Sometimes I've seen people lose motivation because they bank their success on one particular book or series. Either that or they bank success on becoming wealthy or making a living by writing.

If I'm being honest, making a living at writing would be my ultimate success story. However, that'll never happen if I don't pull the trigger on things. If they fail, they fail. That means I have to start working on something else, changing my outlook, making new plans, etc. Success has never fallen in my lap. I've scratched and clawed for it.

So I think the key to success is putting yourself out there. That's the only way you can achieve your goals. And if you fail, then start again, submit other places, self-publish and see where that takes you. There are so many options available to writers these days that finding your own definition of success is more attainable now than ever.

 

[skip.knox]

Like Overby, I will take success anywhere I can. Finishing is a success. Self-publishing is a success. First review, first ranking, first sale, all are successes. Thinking success is just one thing is too narrow-minded for me. At the other end of the scale, selling a hundred books would be a success, but then I'd aim for 500 or a thousand or a million. Or to have the next book do that well. And then the next. If there's a success after which there are no more successes, I don't want it. I think it's called "dead".

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

As above, there's no one "success". Not for me anyway. Finishing my first novel so many years ago was a "yeehah" moment. Followed immediately of course by the "oh shit I wrote that!" moment. Sending off to agents was a success of course, followed by the oh crap moments. Publishing my first book was a major success. Getting my first sales of it. Watching it go to sub three thousands in the sales rankings in Amazon. Having it sell its first thousand copies. Holding a copy of the book in my hands. Having my first months selling a thousand books in a month.

They were all moments of success, but each one seems to come with a downside that seems to follow. But that's good in a way. It means there's always something to strive for. Another potential success ahead.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Fyle]

For me it is simple. I have to echo one thing Brian Scott said, there are two types of success.

1) Getting enjoyment out of writing by satisfaction of telling a story, having others and yourself enjoy it. This first vesion of success is very flexible and each one of us can find a way we have been successful in writing once we have a decent amount of experience.

2) Being able to sell that story in a meaningful amount or have works consistantly published, and for me personally, I would say being able to make a living out of it. Anyone with passion and patience for the art can become a "successful, experienced writer" in time. Not everyone can make a living out of it to a meaningful standard to lets say, have have enough money from it for writing to be your only job and retire from it (or at least your 9-5) instead of being a lawyer, computer programmer or whatever other career choice you could have made.

This is not something we do to keep to ourselves. This is an art that is meant to be shared, as if nobody ever reads what you write, it loses value. If you do write just for yourself, I mean never share any of it (sure we all have private experiemnts etc) I don't think many people can relate to that when speaking honestly. And if you do write just for yourself, you have little reason to be here to try and get advice and improve your stories because you can read it and understand it better than anyone.

My opinion.

 

[cupiscent]

First and foremost, success is telling the story I wanted to tell, with a sidenote of achieving the effect with the reader that I wanted to.

For me, secondary success is going to be having an industry professional say, "Yes, I believe your story is publishable."

 

[Fyle]

First and foremost, success is telling the story I wanted to tell, with a sidenote of achieving the effect with the reader that I wanted to.

For me, secondary success is going to be having an industry professional say, "Yes, I believe your story is publishable."

This sounds pretty good. I would say that sidenote is pretty important though!

 

[Penpilot]

I don't view success broadly I guess. I view it by each small victory I achieve. If my goal is to finish a first draft and I finish it, then that's one success. If it's to get a piece published and it happens, then that's a success.

This is how I tend to think. I guess, success is achieving what ever goal I set out for myself, long-term, short-term, mid-term. Today, success was dropping off someone at the airport and getting to the mall before it closed.

In terms of writing, it can be writing the first draft, editing a chapter, finishing editing the book, sending queries out, etc.

And it never stops. There's always the next chapter, the next book, the next query, the next whatever.

Generally, I try not to worry about things like measuring myself in terms of "success" too much. I just worry about being happy. If I just do that, I think that at the end of the day, what ever we achieve or don't, won't matter because it will be success just by default.

 

[acapes]

If I finish something and I don't hate it

 

[CupofJoe]

It varies...
Some days Success is Get up and Write something - anything...
Other days it is Finish one thing before loosing interest and wondering off.
Ambitiously it would be to have anyone I don't know read my work. I am far too timid in letting my work out there... [Oddly, or perhaps not, I have no problem writing and publishing my day-job work]
I have yet to write anything I think is actually good from end to end. I have my moments but I read others [including work from people on and ex- of this forum and think You utter b@****ds!!!! How dare you be that good!.
Quickly followed by... Why didn't I think of writing that...

 

[Caged Maiden]

Wow look at all the responses. I leave you alone for one evening and look what happens. Thanks for all the input.

When I began writing, I did it for fun, to entertain myself, and to pass time in a boring job and then at home as a mom. But the last four years, I've dug deep. I've learned a ton and met a great support network. But for some reason I'm not quite ready to pull the trigger.

I've begun to wonder what's wrong with me. Am I just not good enough? Will I ever be? Am I inventing excuses to not try? I've never been successful at anything. I've undertaken hard activity after hard activity throughout my life. I go into everything as an underdog, with no hope of "winning". I think it's become my comfort zone. I'm not telling you guys this as any sort of "woe is me" tale or as a request for free psychological counsel, but I want to be honest with myself. I have a problem with positive thinking and a general fear of success. It feels weird to say that. I just don't feel okay taking responsibility for anything--ESPECIALLY if it's good. It's like I want to know inside I'm good at something, that I've acquired the skill to manage the task, but anyone pointing it out feels awkward and sort of guilty, like I NEED approval.

I'm turning 35 in a few months and my life over the past seven years has become a stagnant, small world sandwiched between chronic pain and the anxiety I've developed. I have no self-confidence. It's just something I was I guess born without. Going back to the MFA article, is that what he meant when he said "you're born with talent or you aren't"? Was I just born not believing I could ever succeed at anything?

But quitting has always come so easy for me. I take a good stab at something and work hard to get as good as I can get, then I ditch the activity and try something else that seems an impossible challenge. I acquire talents like old ladies acquire cats. I have a bunch and none of them are the sorts of things that translate directly into wage-earning potential. I mean, why couldn't I just be awesome at something useful, or drawn to it at least? No, I sew and sing and write and paint and...you get the point. But that's the thing. None of it makes me happy. Not after I've "figured it out", the fun is in the chase for me. I wonder whether writing is just the same.

Am I afraid to publish because I know I'm still not as good as I want to be, or am I afraid to publish because then the chase is over? Do any of you have a similar situation? I'm genuinely interested in understanding the minds of writers who have published, those who have "published too soon" and those who took their sweet time and knew when they did it, it was the right choice. I have a tricky WiP and I very much want validation from a publisher, but the novel won't get published. It's too long and not a popular subject. It won't appeal to many readers. Is that the negative Nelly in my head or what I actually think? Is that just what I think people will say? Anyways, I was pretty resolved to self-publish. I just felt it would be a better ease into professional writing. If people didn't like the book, I was the only one who knew, right?

You guys have gotten to know me in four years. I'd appreciate your insights. I don't often have my feelings involved in writing, but this is something I'm pretty sensitive about. I have a lot of fear in my life and I don't want to let it stop me from trying something, but thus far, my confidence has been held together by my security in the technical aspects of my craft. The knowledge that I'm a solid critter, have decent if not good editing skills, and that I can basically write. But I am afraid of the emotional consequences of publishing. As soon as I think about doing it, I start asking questions like, "What if someone hates the book? or your mom reads the steamy scenes? or people think your character with daddy issues are a thin disguise for your own paternal disquietude?

I might be crazy. Sorry if I am. I'm afraid and I want very much to sample some small feeling of success before I hang up my writing hat. I want to write. I just don't know how to get over this fear that's turned from an ember into a pit of red hot coals over the last few years.

My sincere gratitude, friends. You have been an endless source of genuine experience and kind advice.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Hey there Caged, I feel like I have some similar issues to you as well. Especially at the someone hating my book. To get over that I look at Amazon reviews of books I love.

Here are some fun ones:

Lord of the Rings 1 star reviews;

The Way of Kings


East of Eden

Dracula

The Inferno

It makes me realize that people are just gonna hate what they're going to hate. I don't have control over them. What I do have control over is my story, my characters, and my writing. If I can polish those up to be publishable I will feel better about my writing. If people hate it, so be it, people hate lots of awesome things for lots of stupid reasons. If I get published then that's a success no one can take away from me.

As for the chase notion. Becoming a writer isn't a one and done thing. You might get published but that may not mean the chase ends. It's just the first step. There are awards to seek, best selling lists to climb, and movies to make. Being a writer is a never ending journey. One that twists and changes everyday. And there is no telling where you may be swept off to. And that to me is a reason why I write. I will never stop chasing the chance to not just get published but to be the best damn author I can be. And until I'm dead ain't nothing is gonna stop me from doing so.

Sorry for the rambling. This is just how I look at those two specific issues. In short, haters be dammed I'm published. And, the chase to be a writer is eternal and one, I think, worth pursuing.

 

[Russ]

I agree with many of the earlier folks who suggest that success is different things at different times, and is very different for each individual.

My definition of success getting my high fantasy quartet published by a traditional publisher through an agent, or if that does not occur than to sell a certain number of copies if I go the self-pub route (I have a number in mind, but I don't share it).

Along the way to that big success I have a whole bunch of planned steps that are little successes along the way. They include getting certain amounts written, getting certain research done, getting an agent, getting blurbs from certain authors etc.

But success is a very personal thing.

One thing that often challenges me when I try to help people on this website is that I don't know what their goals are. When someone asks for advice on a subject quite often I would give different types of advise, or could give more specific advise if I knew their aims.

Hopefully I will pick this up over time and that will make me more helpful to folks around here.

Having said that I don't think your doubts are crazy at all. As I think I mentioned elsewhere I just read an as yet unpublished interview with a writer who has more than 20 NYT best sellers under his belt and has changed the English language who still fears each of his books will be rejected by the public and publishers. Some people just think that way even when the facts would steer them differently.

In your case, if you are questioning your own judgement/evaluation of your work and its market (and so few people really can be objective about their own work) you need to have a few people you trust and respect review the ideas and give you feedback,and you need to be as open as you can to the possibility that your work is far better/more marketable than you think it is.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I've run out of "thanks" for today, but I appreciate the comments still coming in. I'll have to hit them when my thanking power returns. I try not to be personal on this forum, but most of the folks who have been here for a while know me pretty well. I really appreciate hearing from those of you who I haven't met as of yet and welcome the opportunity to make more friends who are in the same boat I'm in. Though sometimes it feels like a leaky dingy, there's room for us all up in here. I'll even share what's left of my bottle of rum. Actually, I don't drink, so you all can split it...for the traditional price, a good story and a laugh. Well met, Russ and Brian. I appreciate your reaching out to a writer questioning her sanity in this crazy game we play. Some days it feels like torture, really.

 

[Penpilot]

Was catching up on my podcasts today and heard a couple Writing Excuses episodes that I think relate to this thread. Caged Maiden, everyone has doubts once in a while, even professional writers.

Writing Excuses 9.53: Writing For Fun » Writing Excuses

Writing Excuses 9.54: Capstone to Season 9 » Writing Excuses

As for fears of succeeding, I think I may be dealing with that a bit right now. I have a more or less finished book that I haven't bothered to query agents for yet. I've had a published author tell me that I should be sending it out because it's good enough, but I honestly don't know exactly why I haven't done anything with it yet. Instead I've been working on a new novel. I guess I'm caught in that comfort zone.

In regards to being good enough, I always tell myself, you're not good enough until you are. What I mean is you're good enough when someone wants your book/story and is willing to pay you for it. Whether you remain good enough is another matter.

Personally, I think worrying about reviews too much will drive you nuts. No matter how good your book is it will get always a bunch of bad reviews, some fair, others no so much. There's no accounting for taste and no accounting for what will throw a person out of a story. For example, there are two highly rated movies that I not only dislike, I absolutely hate them.

Does my dislike for those movies take away from the enjoyment of those who did like them? No.

Does my dislike take anything away from the validity of those stories? No.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Thank you, Penpilot. I appreciate you understanding what I mean, so much more than I can say. I'm a good writer. I feel pretty confident saying as much. But, I just can't send the book out into the world, and I look back at the ten books I wrote before this and I just KNOW they aren't as good. Not anywhere near. So I just keep thinking what to do next. Maybe this WiP is just as awful as all the others and I'll see it in a year. Maybe I shouldn't even be writing novels, but short stories and trying to submit them to paying markets like so many other people. it's a hard thing to pull the trigger and change your "investment" after years of just writing and more writing. I just spent the better part of a year doing nothing but editing a single work, and I'm burned out. I want to kick it in the teeth right about now. I just feel my soul sapped away every time I consider I have to go through all this again. But I hope (against all reason) that taking on a couple new projects will re-inspire me to do better and work faster. But then I stop myself as the anxiety sets in and wonder whether I even need more. Like, have I hit the end of the road? I mean, it's been fourteen years. People say they love writing and I've fallen out of love with it after a toilsome year of hard editing. Now maybe that's just this one project (which was admittedly more than I intended it to be and I certainly bit off more than I could chew) or will I find simpler stories that take form easier and allow me a comparable level of stress-free writing and editing? I'm hoping so anyways.

I'm somehow happy to know I'm not the only one having a hard time pulling the trigger on something I really think is ready. I guess I need to make a sort of schedule of what I hope to do. Send it to five agents and if I don't hear back, self-publish it with the help of a professional editor, and just get it off the stove already. I've only got so many burners and this one had its turn to cook. It ain't getting any better for letting it simmer longer, right?

With one of my critique partners, we've made a pact to motivate each other and push each other to publish. no excuses. I guess I'm just going to stick to that plan and get on with other things. I just dread presenting my debut novel to readers. I don't think enough people have liked it so far. But maybe it's unrealistic to expect a sweeping positive response to any manuscript.

 

[skip.knox]

Yes it's unrealistic. It was unrealistic to start the thing in the first place. Around here, we specialize in unrealistic.

But I think I hear you on this. I'm sensitive too, which is funny because I have never thought of myself that way. I've always said I had thick skin. I've written countless history papers that have been critiqued by professors. I have written more that have been critiqued by reviewers of professional publications. None of it bothered me. I could be objective.

A little over a year ago, I joined a critique group at my local library. Nice folks. The first thing I submitted, they really liked. And the next. And the next. And I noticed something very odd about myself. I *loved* that. It made me feel ridiculously good. I started doing goofy teen-age boy things like thinking about what I was going to wear on critique night, and what if they didn't like this one? It's embarrassing.

That's when I realized, I actually care whether or not people like my fiction writing. I can't even claim I've poured heart and soul into the work. I'm just trying to get the miserable thing finished.

I have one publication on Amazon and it has exactly zero reviews. I'm so disappointed I don't even promote it, because promoting it and *still* getting no reviews would be even worse. I know (now) that a one-star review would be awful, even if I got ten good ones (I leave the reverse case for future nightmares).

It's dumb. It's not rational. But I have to admit it because there it is. And I'm the confident one! I can only imagine what it must be for someone plagued by self-doubt and insecurity. I won't say I feel your pain because I don't and I hope I never do! But I will say that what you are describing resonates with me and it makes total sense.

A final comment. You have been writing for some years now, right? That doesn't sound like quitting to me. Oh sure, you *think* about quitting often. Not the same thing. I think about it. I avoid it. I procrastinate. I could be writing or editing right now. I'll take any excuse; if it's half-baked, I'll take two. But I keep writing, because the only thing worse is not writing. Not writing makes my brain itch.

Maybe, if you keep on writing, it means you're a writer. Good or bad? I dunno. Other people judge that. Heck, sometimes it's even future generations that judge it, small consolation. The only thing the artist can do is keep on keeping on. No matter what else, it's still better than our day job!

-= Skip =-

 

[psychotick]

Hi Caged,

Sounds to me like what you're describing is a thing known as the Jonah Complex - or a fear of success. It's actually a very common issue for people.

There are a number of reasons why people may legitmately fear success of course.They may think it'll change them, or their friends won't see them the same way. There's also a fear that being a success may place greater pressure on you to succeed in the future - ie I've got one book out and it went wll, now my next book has to do the same.

But the one that I think applies to most writers - and the reason they are so happy to go the trade route and accept rejection after rejection after rejection, is the fear of change. Success is often change. But more than just change in life etc. Change in the perceptions people have of themselves. And it becomes a very comfortable rut to say "oh well I got rejected again, I just have to work harder etc etc." There's no expectations. No change in the perception of who you are. And people defend that position with all these lines like 'well I'm not ready and I won't jump until I am." The result of course is that they mostly never jump.

The way out of this is to as they say, embrace the possibilities. To accept the thought that maybe, just maybe you are good enough. That's why I maintain the rather strong line - which some disagree with - that as a writer you must set yourself goals that you will achieve. Going trade is too easy. Too easy to fall into that rut. At some point set yourself a target - I will submit to so many agents, I will do the rounds for a set period of time, and then damn the torpedoes - If nothings come I will leap.

I like the deal that you made with your writing / review friend - publish and be damned. But set a timeline on it.

And there is a line from Top Gear - the English version - which should resonate with everyone - "What's the worst that could happen?" I cannot tell you how strongly I love that line. Yes it always does go horribly wrong for them. The trio of twits are incompetant beyond belief. And yet their ability to embrace abject failure is an absolute delight. It makes them.

And self publishing is the same. Yes it can go horribly wrong. Yes people may absolutely hate what you write. It's almost certain that your book will not become a mega best seller. But do it anyway. Jump. You'll survive if everything goes arse over heels. You'll survive if it goes brilliantly - even if it means you have to re-evaluate everything about yourself. You won't regret it.

Cheers, Greg.