What is up with this contradiction?

[Tom]

So, here’s something I’ve been thinking about lately that I’d like to hear your thoughts on. I’m going to present the general gist of the concept in script form, for humorous purposes. Any thoughts? Why is this discrepancy so common?

BOOK: *realistic portrayal of pre-industrial civilization, including the impact of disease, warfare, poverty, poor food, and primitive medical practices*

ME, your friendly neighborhood Tom Nimenai: Nice, realism. I like this. *settles in*

BOOK: *group of people, including women, travels about the country for an odd few months*

ME: Wait, why hasn’t there been a mention of the women dealing with their menstrual cycles?

MALE AUTHOR: Menstruation? Ew! I can’t write about that!

BOOK: *menstruation ignored*

ME: *stares*

ME: So, let me get this straight. You can describe in loving detail a healer draining the pus from the festering stump of an amputated limb, but you can’t write about menstruation?

MALE AUTHOR: It’s gross!

ME: Roughly half the population of the planet deals with it every month. Sure, it’s uncomfortable, icky, and awkward to talk about, but for women it’s a fact of life. Don’t you think it’s at least worth a mention?

MALE AUTHOR: *throws up hands* Fine, just so the women are happy! Hey, it’s good for diversity!

BOOK: *menstruation given a throwaway mention*

ME: Um…there are 500 pages in this book. And only one 3-sentence paragraph devoted to one of the female party members dealing with her period.

MALE AUTHOR: But I mentioned it, didn’t I?

ME: …I got nothing. *shuts book*

 

[Ireth]

That's a really good point. I'm working on a fanfic right now set in early First Age Middle-earth, with a female MC. Menstruation is definitely going to be an ever-present issue.

 

[Nimue]

My rule of thumb is that if your book has people pissing, sh*tting, and/or, periods should be given the same treatment--none of that should be added for "shock value" hopefully, just mentioned where realistic.

Also, with all that low-fantasy sex everyone is having, birth control! Ancient methods were varied and disgusting, so dig in! If the POV is female and periods and BC don't get brought up ever, that's pretty unrealistic.

This is kind of tangential, but uh, me and a bunch of female friends had a conversation a while back about how almost all of us really learned about sex and periods from fiction. Before we were supposed to know about them, of course.

For me it was coming-of-age girl-oriented fantasy like Tamora Pierce's books, for others it was different genres.

I wonder if a female author writing for that age range would feel almost a responsibility for that education? Any imagined responsibility aside, I feel like this should be treated like any other aspect of life when writing--include as appropriate, don't pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[Tom]

I'm not sure where I first learned about sex and periods, but I know I didn't really understand the full impact of menstruation on a woman's situation until I read this YA fantasy duo called Eon and Eona. The main character was a girl disguised as a boy, and the very first issue the reader saw her deal with was suffering through weapons practice with horrible cramps. The rest of the book, and its sequel, delve into a lot about periods and how ancient people dealt with them. It was very educational.

 

[Ireth]

Well, my MC is asexual (she's a modern girl from Earth dropped into Middle-earth), and as such she never has sex, so birth control is not an issue.

For a bunch of good fantasy books that deal with periods, read Tamora Pierce's Tortall books. The MCs are all women, some of whom disguise as men to become knights. Menstruation and birth control are prominently featured as part of the plot.

 

[Tom]

Yesssss, Tamora Pierce is excellent! I haven't read a lot of her work, but what I have seen is awesome at portraying female characters and their physical, mental, and emotional traits.

 

[skip.knox]

Good example, Tom. But that was a case where menstruation was a plot point. It was relevant to the story. In most stories, it isn't. We don't need to know about Brigid O’Shaughnessy's menstrual cycle any more than we need to know about how Sam Spade learned to ride a bike. There are literally thousands of things that are "realistic" that don't need to go into the story.

I don't see it as a contradiction. We don't need to see Aragorn urinate to know he's human.

 

[Tom]

My beef with it is, I see it glossed over in the wrong type of fantasy. This is the fantasy that is gritty, realistic, shows sex and pissing and crapping, and doesn't shy away from describing wounds, the ravages of disease, decaying corpses, and many other things you don't want to think about while eating.

But there's no mention of menstruation. Or birth control. Or frankly anything about women's health, even if there are numerous female characters.

It just doesn't make sense that menstruation is apparently too "icky" to mention in a book that seems to enjoy making readers squirm.

 

[Nimue]

Right, but I don't think high fantasy or noir are the genres we're talking about--this is more about low fantasy where urination and gruesome injuries are included in the narration, but periods aren't. I wouldn't say that absolutely everyone needs to include that in their writing because they have a female POV, but if it fits with the tone you're going for, why isn't it there?

 

[Russ]

My beef with it is, I see it glossed over in the wrong type of fantasy. This is the fantasy that is gritty, realistic, shows sex and pissing and crapping, and doesn't shy away from describing wounds, the ravages of disease, decaying corpses, and many other things you don't want to think about while eating.

But there's no mention of menstruation. Or birth control. Or frankly anything about women's health, even if there are numerous female characters.

It just doesn't make sense that menstruation is apparently too "icky" to mention in a book that seems to enjoy making readers squirm.

If the book seems to be focussed on all those bodily functions for some reason I think it only fair that menstruation should be part of the equation. In fact in many cultures menstruation is a big deal, for good or ill.

Personally I know most characters need to relieve themselves and bath etc, but I am just not interested in reading about it.

 

[2WayParadox]

Yeah, I frankly don't really care about how my characters fulfill their bodily functions. A guard might go and have a piss in a bush, to set the scene of him being a guard. I have a female MC, and I've never thought about her menstrual cycle. She's got more important issues at hand. If I took menstrual cycle into account, that would just add another layer of complexity.

Also, unless menstruation has some plot salience, I wonder where you'd go with it? Generally comments concerning menstruation ar platitudes and insensitive one-liners. I don't really see the value in adding that, unless you're characterizing a boorish character.

So, while I might use a bodily function here and there, if it happens to pop up, I don't see the point in fussing about it.

 

[Tom]

It's not an issue in most fantasy, but in low fantasy, which seems to harbor a certain glee in being as realistically "gritty" as possible, the glossing over of menstruation just doesn't make sense. I think it's just another instance of issues relating to women being swept aside as either too "irrelevant" or too "gross" to include.

 

[Caged Maiden]

The Red Tent is a serious thing. Women in certain cultures would spend their cycle days among other women and separate from the village. Being a woman, I have feelings and experience in this subject, so why don't I weigh in on what I do in my writing.

In one story, my MC (a former prostitute) is raped in a dungeon and she escapes with the aid of another prisoner. As the two travel together, the man has a hard time dealing with what he sees as a tragic pregnancy. He confronts her about it one day, saying she should remain behind in a safe village while he completes their task. She argues she isn't fragile, why should he leave her at home. At that point, the man gets serious, saying she should acknowledge that she's with child and take it easy--or at the very least not get herself into a bloody scene. She laughs, asking why he thinks such a ridiculous thing. He replies that they've shared close quarters for almost eight weeks and she hasn't had her "woman time". To which, she replies that he's a silly, thoughtful idiot. She's been using herbs (yes they exist) that suppress her cycle (like all good ladies of the night do) and he has no reason to be concerned.

Now, nature has ways of dictating fertility. Gymnasts, for example. I'd say if you have a warrior woman who is more muscle than fat, who produces minor quantities of estrogen, she is probably infertile as long as she keeps up the rigorous training and lifestyle. But for the majority of women between the ages of 18 and 35, in a historical context, they would probably be fertile. Menarche (the onset of menstruation) was often later in the old days (nutrition being a factor) and menopause set on earlier. But to completely leave it out...I don't agree.

I think you can write herbs that suppress menstruation, simple comfortable items (that won't disgust readers) to make the process simple and not dramatic, or even show the outward signs like irritability and pain without showing the science. But I agree that the absence of women's issues is a disservice to the story if the story is about female characters and their lives.

In another story, i have two characters jump into bed together in chapter two, as complete strangers. But their brief and fiery love affair is not intended to last. When he doesn't pull away quick enough, he asks her when her courses were and she replies, "What does it matter? You don't owe me any obligations. I'm not asking anything from you." He responds rather sadly that she doesn't think much of his honor.

I like the idea that women's issues are not meant solely for women to weigh, in that respect. The man in my life is not the most astute observer of my anything, but he's been very tender and aware of my female-specific complications. We have four kids and while that might seem a disappointing outcome for natural family planning, I can tell you the exact days we conceived the two kids we planned and the other two who kinda made their presence inevitable. Whoopsy.

Many cultures practiced infanticide if they didn't have an abortion option available and many more used birth control. Vinegar is a natural spermicide and a vinegar douche can be used regularly with no discomfort. Also, strong herbs can be used for all sorts of things from delaying ovulation to causing miscarriage. If your story deals with those kinds of real issues, the material is out there. Maybe I just know more about herbs than the average person, but I use medicine in my books all the time and women need medicine as much as men, maybe more.

It's funny and off topic, but in my WiP i have a scene where two characters take a truth serum, testing it for use in part of their scheming. The woman comments that her pulse is rapid and she feels more energized, but no more truthful than normal. The man says he doesn't think that was the intended reaction. She says, "Well if it fails as a truth serum, he might try marketing his concoction to the wealthy old ladies of the city, for waning passion. There's money to be made in that sort of thing."

So there you go, there are herbs that give men a pick-me-up and women a little extra circulation to warm their passion. I mean, look no further than your common pepper (the hot kind). Niacin is in that regard sort of an aphrodesiac because anything that gets the blood speeding through the body and certain tissues that need higher blood flow, works to the benefit of lovers.

 

[Jabrosky]

Meh, it would depend on what the story needs. Unless that kind of bathroom stuff needs to be thrown into the story, it's not something I would miss. And if there's one generalization about male writers I am comfortable stating, it's that they aren't going to have intimate firsthand experience with menstruation the way women will anyway, so writing it would be doubly awkward for them. At least both men and women can have their pus drained from injuries.

 

[Russ]

It's not an issue in most fantasy, but in low fantasy, which seems to harbor a certain glee in being as realistically "gritty" as possible, the glossing over of menstruation just doesn't make sense. I think it's just another instance of issues relating to women being swept aside as either too "irrelevant" or too "gross" to include.

I confess I am at least a decade behind in my fantasy reading.

Can you or others suggest some titles or authors so that I can see what this "low fantasy" looks like?

 

[2WayParadox]

game of thrones is a prime examplr

 

[Tom]

I haven't been reading a lot of low fantasy at the moment--I tend to pick and choose titles, and read across genres a lot. One example I can think of off the top of my head is Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series, which is written in a low fantasy style, but takes place in a high fantasy world. And Game of Thrones, of course.

 

[Reilith]

As a female writer who used to write female MC only before I haven't really given much thought to this before, but I do remember being positively surprised when it was mentioned in a fantasy novel I was reading at the time. It was situational as the lady was pregnant though. Currently I am writing a male MC so I don't think his POV would really be suitable to point out periods as he has no way of actually confirming it (and before anyone mentions intercourse, he is a gay character). I may graze over it in the need arises if a female character gets a POV or if she gets pregnant or something similar.
As for importance of including it I don't find it to be exceptionally important, but it can be put in for more 'real life' value. All this depends on the type of fantasy you're writing. In my writing I don't tend to mention every bodily function the person experiences, only when it fits the context so I don't see the need to make menstruation more visible than the other stuff. If your writing on the other hand actually does have a lot of depiction of bodily functions (ASOIAF) then of course menstruation should not be excluded since it is real and as it was stated in the first post half of the world experiences it each month. And being a male writer is no excuse for avoiding it.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I don't know if it's intentionally overlooked or just not thought of by other authors. I can't know their way of thinking unless they tell me.

For my own writing, I wouldn't write about menstruation unless it was relevant to the plot or an interesting detail which adds texture to plot or character.

In my opinion, menstruation is rather mundane, same as urination or defecation. Now, if one warrior is pissing on a prisoner, that may be different. There's something more to the act.

Without meaning behind the function, it's mundane.

 

[Mindfire]

I wouldn't say that absolutely everyone needs to include that in their writing because they have a female POV, but if it fits with the tone you're going for, why isn't it there?

Three words: lack of awareness. Not only is menstruation foreign to us menfolk in a physical sense, it's also pretty foreign in a mental sense too. As in, the vast majority of us almost never spare it a first thought, much less a second. Other bodily functions, gruesome injury and death: these are things we have, if not firsthand experience, second-hand knowledge or mental conceptions of. These women's health issues you bring up are, to most of us, a black box of the most inscrutable variety. In fact, said black box is inscrutable to such a grand degree that, much like an infant who has not yet gained object permanence, we don't even think of these issues as existing unless they are brought up in conversation in our very presence. And then we completely forget about them as soon as they go away.

EDIT: If the writer is female however? Search me.