What is up with this contradiction?

[T.Allen.Smith]

Three words: lack of awareness. Not only is menstruation foreign to us menfolk in a physical sense, it's also pretty foreign in a mental sense too. As in, the vast majority of us almost never spare it a first thought, much less a second.

That can change with the addition of a wife & daughters.

 

[Mindfire]

That can change with the addition of a wife & daughters.

Thanks to the psychological phenomenon of compartmentalization, that's not necessarily true.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

That can change with the addition of a wife & daughters.

It does.

But I agree with Mindfire that, being a guy, I'm still clueless about women in many ways. (I did remember it's 10 years today since my wife and I kissed for the first time. I get brownie points for that, don't I? But by clueless I mean…) The feeling of carrying a child, for example, is something I could probably write decently. But I truly don't know the feeling of it, and unlike my wife, I didn't spend years wondering what it would be like to someday carry my own child.

All I know about menstruation now that I didn't know before is that I have to let my wife win the argument. But then, that's true every day of the month.

 

[Tom]

I'm not asking male writers to cover women's health issues in detail--just to, you know, acknowledge them. If a female writer can describe sex from a man's point of view--something a cis woman at least wouldn't have experience with--then a male writer can describe the experience of menstruation. He can find female friends who can describe it for him, read about what it means to women, and just write it.

I think it's less an issue of awareness and more an issue of not wanting to be aware of it.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

It does.

But I agree with Mindfire that, being a guy, I'm still clueless about women in many ways. (I did remember it's 10 years today since my wife and I kissed for the first time. I get brownie points for that, don't I? But by clueless I mean...) The feeling of carrying a child, for example, is something I could probably write decently. But I truly don't know the feeling of it, and unlike my wife, I didn't spend years wondering what it would be like to someday carry my own child.

All I know about menstruation now that I didn't know before is that I have to let my wife win the argument. But then, that's true every day of the month.

I'll have to disagree...kind of.

Yes, I can't know exactly what it's like to carry a child, menstruate, or breast feed. But, through the life experiences and overly-detailed conversations in the course of fatherhood (she told me I needed to know those details), I have a pretty good idea.

I also don't know what it's like to be a CIA operative or a transgender person. However, with some research and a true desire to understand the experiences of others, I'm quite certain I could write those character types convincingly.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I think it's less an issue of awareness and more an issue of not wanting to be aware of it.

I'm not convinced of that.

Again, I can't speak for other writers, but I wouldn't shy away from it if it was a relevant detail to plot, story, or character.

Just mentioning it for the mention alone feels like wasted words to me. In my opinion, every word written and every detail depicted should advance plot or character. If menstruation fulfills that requirement, great...include. If it doesn't, it's mundane.

 

[Devor]

I don't think this way for most things, but for this one I kind of do: Wouldn't including it just be a can of worms? I've read a tiny handful of articles talking about menstruation, and in the comments the women are all over the place. Everything from "If you say it's gross, you're saying I'm gross" to "it's gross, it makes me feel gross, and I need space."

If people are all over the place with their reactions to it, then I don't want to include it. I wouldn't have any control as an author of what my readers are feeling.

Of course, there's still exceptions to everything. Sansa's first period in ASOIAF, for instance. But to mention it casually? Maybe I'm wrong, but that strikes me as more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Mindfire]

I'm not asking male writers to cover women's health issues in detail--just to, you know, acknowledge them. If a female writer can describe sex from a man's point of view--something a cis woman at least wouldn't have experience with--then a male writer can describe the experience of menstruation. He can find female friends who can describe it for him, read about what it means to women, and just write it.

I think it's less an issue of awareness and more an issue of not wanting to be aware of it.

I think you missed the general thrust of my comment. It's not that male writers can't do these things, but rather that it never occurs to them to do so.

EDIT:The desire for awareness or lack thereof is largely irrelevant when it never occurs to you that there even is such a thing as a desire for awareness. It is literally, within the scope of your mind, a thing which does not exist. I point once again to my object permanence simile. For most men, these are not things that exist unless they themselves are confronted with them in some way. And then, after these things disappear from their personal experience, they are instantly forgotten. Not by any active or conscious exercise of will, just as a sort of psychological thing-that-happens.

 

[Tom]

Of course, there's still exceptions to everything. Sansa's first period in ASOIAF, for instance. But to mention it casually? Maybe I'm wrong, but that strikes me as more trouble than it's worth.

Exactly. That's what I'm looking for. If menstruation is going to be in there, it needs to be a plot-worthy issue, not a casual mention. A girl's first period is an excellent example--it's both an opportunity for character growth, and for symbolism that could tie into the rest of the plot.

 

[Mindfire]

Re-post because my edit was ninja'd:
Deleted my re-post and restored my edit above with grammar fixes and more clarity.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I'll have to disagree...kind of.

Yes, I can't know exactly what it's like to carry a child, menstruate, or breast feed. But, through the life experiences and overly-detailed conversations in the course of fatherhood (she told me I needed to know those details), I have a pretty good idea.

I also don't know what it's like to be a CIA operative or a transgender person. However, with some research and a true desire to understand the experiences of others, I'm quite certain I could write those character types convincingly.

I guess where I was going with that is I'm recognizing my limitation… and yes, there were those conversations. Though now that you've mentioned it, I probably would be more likely to write the feeling of breast-feeding than a male bodily function as I've given it more thought. I tend to steer clear of bodily functions unless necessary.

In my Jobe story, Addison and Jobe have a month-long adventure. It is simply established that Addison and Jobe "go behind a bush." At some point in a month's time, Addison has her period. The reader doesn't need to know when, as I'm merely establishing that there are boundaries between the characters.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Okay, since we're still chatting about this, I want to include some other stuff I write too. HA! I think bodily functions tend to be of the "every day" variety in most books. Anyone can write characters ducking out of sight to eliminate, and many even craft interesting scenes (someone kidnapped when they're taking their privacy, etc.)

Here's some fun stuff I like to mention, because I'm me, I keep it real, and life is fun to throw at characters.

In my story where my complete stranger characters jump into bed in chapter two, their journey takes them into a rather overgrown forest for a few days and the woman asks whether her guard might have a comb because she'd misplaced her brush. He swipes a palm over his shorn head and says, "You'll be hard-pressed to find a comb in this group (indicating a dozen mercenaries, many of them bald)." She asks hesitantly whether they keep their hair short to appear more frightening. To which he laughs and says it's to keep away the pests. The men live in a guild house and some share their beds with ladies of the night and dogs (the dogs as pets, so you don't think I'm really suggesting...anyways...). She says that's disgusting, to think the men have such low standards. He laughs and tells her to turn up her nose if she wishes, but to live in a mercenary guild house, one either develops a certain amount of fortitude against the itching or shaves clean as a babe, above and below.
That was a really fun scene and though not pertinent to the story or plot, I enjoy small ways characters communicate and develop mutual understanding. Why can't it be over something kinda gross, rather than being over fashion or family or work?
I think sometimes characters actually have an easier time bonding if there's something kinda gross or unusual at the heart of an interaction.

 

[Mindfire]

Well that certainly adds... character.

 

[Tom]

Caged Maiden, I'd like to read that book. It sounds a lot more interesting than traditional high fantasy, where everyone's hair is described like it was washed and conditioned with Pantene.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Well that certainly adds... character.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Caged Maiden]

What an awesome compliment. THANK YOU!

However, I don't think you want to read it quite yet. It sits at 125k words and is a terrible bore I think. It needs wanton machete work and maybe a swift kick in the pants (front and back). But thank you, Tom, for your enthusiasm. I'm flattered and would love an opportunity to thrust upon you this novel eight of my fantasy series at some point. In fact, I'll PM you the query for it, just for fun. All my writing is sort of like this. I write fantasy/ romance hybrids that I describe as real, raw, and mostly awkward.

 

[Tom]

I like realism in fantasy. I'm also sorta wierd--I enjoy reading the mundane aspects of life in fantasy worlds. You know, like how people dress, what they eat, customs they practice...I guess I'm just an anthropologist at heart.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I also enjoy the mundane aspects of life, I suppose. Most of my characters are average Joes, really. Even my werewolves and mages. I suppose that's why I really struggle to write things like battles or big magic, or anything else that probably appears on the page of any epic anything. My stories are not epic. They're not grand, nor even serious. My stories are sometimes emotional, occasionally funny, and probably rather low-brow for people who like to digest books like fine dining.

That being said, it's exactly what I like to read, and i have a couple authors who blew my mind with this style and if I can affect readers half as positively, I'll be happy I caused some smiles and maybe one wry chuckle.

 

[Tom]

I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to my writing style. I just don't do...grandeur. Personal stories speak to me.

 

[Mindfire]

Come to think of it, I really need to pay more attention to things like this. I've noticed that my storytelling style is very "Christopher Nolan", by which I mean that it tends to lean very heavily on high-minded ideas, worldbuilding, and wow moments while these little human details get overlooked. It's probably my greatest flaw as a writer. I even do the "characters stand around explaining the themes of the story" thing he does, though whether I do it more or less subtly is debatable.