Ireth
Myth Weaver
*participates with a 
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What is up with this contradiction?
- Thread starter Tom
- Start date
I had to look the term up, but labeling Einstein is totally unnecessary. Let's get back to the topic.
And yes, I'm a guy, and I'm perfectly comfortable with the topic of menstruation. This Einstein thing, on the other hand… I don't want to hear any more on that. Period.
And yes, I'm a guy, and I'm perfectly comfortable with the topic of menstruation. This Einstein thing, on the other hand… I don't want to hear any more on that. Period.
Ireth
Myth Weaver
I see what you did there.
Did what? Question mark?
(Whistles innocently… Ellipsis…)
(Whistles innocently… Ellipsis…)
Nimue
Auror
Ellipsis is when you think it's done, but wait.... there's more! Oh, uterus, you're so funny.
Mythopoet
Auror
All right, the time has come. This must be linked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppuMaQ4hZE4
Also, come on. It's no fun when the man is comfortable with the topic of menstruation. I talk about my period with my husband intentionally to make him uncomfortable. It's one of the things that makes me feel better.
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I teach at an urban high school. I'm unfazed by most topics.
Jabrosky
Banned
Deleted by T.Allen.Smith
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Well, he can stay on [DELETED NAME OF SITE], but he won't be back here.
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Scribes,
You should all be commended for handling the obvious attempts at baiting and trolling with dignity.
The Mod staff has decided it's in the best interest of the community to delete all presence of that person's vitriol. They are banned. No sense in allowing him a lingering presence.
As such, some of your posts have been deleted to fully eradicate that presence from our community.
Thank you.
TAS
You should all be commended for handling the obvious attempts at baiting and trolling with dignity.
The Mod staff has decided it's in the best interest of the community to delete all presence of that person's vitriol. They are banned. No sense in allowing him a lingering presence.
As such, some of your posts have been deleted to fully eradicate that presence from our community.
Thank you.
TAS
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Nimue
Auror
That gets my vote for the least surprising thing I've learned all week!
I'm not sure if this is off-topic (is anything off-topic in this thread, I wonder?) but I'd like to bring in a different example of how using the body can humanize a character.
I was reading The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster-Bujold (highly recommend that you read all her stuff, right now) and there was a scene where the main character experiences a supernatural struggle between the wolf-spirit trapped in his body and a curse that was binding him. There was a lot of exquisite magical and physical description, but a detail that stuck with me is that later, recovering, he hopes that the woman he's in love with didn't notice his painful physical arousal during the struggle. The use of this small, non-graphic mention did so many things: it showed the extremity of his passion and bloodlust when the wolf took over, it used the symbolism of a lapse of control or involuntary possession, it helped illustrate a heightened awareness of his love interest, and it made him seem like a real human with real worries. The book didn't have sex scenes, and that detail wasn't framed as erotic, just matter-of-fact. It just seemed so realistic to me--even the sexual functions of the body aren't necessarily sexy. They can be confused by stress or excitement; they can just be inconvenient.
Hope this doesn't set us down an even more inappropriate road, but I thought it'd be good to have a mention about the same sort of issue from the other direction, gender-wise.
I'm not sure if this is off-topic (is anything off-topic in this thread, I wonder?) but I'd like to bring in a different example of how using the body can humanize a character.
I was reading The Hallowed Hunt by Lois McMaster-Bujold (highly recommend that you read all her stuff, right now) and there was a scene where the main character experiences a supernatural struggle between the wolf-spirit trapped in his body and a curse that was binding him. There was a lot of exquisite magical and physical description, but a detail that stuck with me is that later, recovering, he hopes that the woman he's in love with didn't notice his painful physical arousal during the struggle. The use of this small, non-graphic mention did so many things: it showed the extremity of his passion and bloodlust when the wolf took over, it used the symbolism of a lapse of control or involuntary possession, it helped illustrate a heightened awareness of his love interest, and it made him seem like a real human with real worries. The book didn't have sex scenes, and that detail wasn't framed as erotic, just matter-of-fact. It just seemed so realistic to me--even the sexual functions of the body aren't necessarily sexy. They can be confused by stress or excitement; they can just be inconvenient.
Hope this doesn't set us down an even more inappropriate road, but I thought it'd be good to have a mention about the same sort of issue from the other direction, gender-wise.
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I totally get you. I respond to the same sorts of things. On many levels. I wrote a scene with a surprisingly similar situation, where my characters are caught asleep in a forest and one of them (unbeknownst to his comrades) is a werewolf. Anyways, wolf spirits attack and are trying to kill him, but they cannot harm him physically, but what they do accomplish is a sort of psychic attack on the priestess and for lack of a better word, paladin, of the group. The characters run and get free of the spirits attacking them, but both the spiritually aware characters are a bit unsettled. The other, who is a little gruffer and not particularly afraid of spirits decides to go back in the light of dawn to retrieve the essentials they left behind. Anyways, while the paladin is all sorts of distraught about what happened, the priestess is excited they've found a huge sage plant along a trail, because she can brush her teeth (a trick I learned. Sage has antiseptic properties and you can just brush your teeth with the fresh leaves because they're fuzzy). Anyways, the POV character is sort of at a loss as he collects himself. THeir mysterious new ally walked off after a spirit wolf tried to kill them all, and his priestess acquaintance isn't concerned for their imminent safety, but having fresh breath.
Yeah, it's hard to describe a scene in a few sentences, but along with you know, menstruation, lice, arousal, etc. you can throw in the mix oral hygiene. It was a small mention but since I've brushed my teeth with sage leaves and it's actually really refreshing and a neat experience, I wanted it in a story. Why not throw it in there somewhere where it will make an impact? It seemed like something he'd notice and feel was important, rather than just throwing it in at random somewhere it got lost in basic camp life.
I think for me, the small details have the most impact if they're entered at points where they actually subvert attention to a main event. For example if you had a character in the party sort of out of sorts but not in an attention-grabbing way. Then she sort of refuses to take part in something like the rest of the party. When confronted about her lacking enthusiasm, she could respond with a sort of, "I'm just in need of a little space and privacy. I'm a woman and you're not. Get off my back." And I can just imagine a male party leader responding. Sort of a, "Oh....I see....uh...sorry i bothered you." Or not. Just saying. That's probably just in my head because later in the story i mentioned above, the party sort of have a conflict. The MC's sisters join him on the road and the older sister is slowly degrading. Her mood becomes sullen. She's short and snippy and unpleasant. Her real reason is because she is troubled because of health issues with another member of the party, but when two of the young men in the party sort of push everyone's buttons with a friendly competition over everything they can talk about, the tension snaps. The younger sister stands up and tells them to drop their pants and settle it once and for all, because she and everyone else is tired of hearing who knows more about hallucinogenic moths, who swims fastest, etc.
I have considered whether (because there are three women traveling in that group, for more than a couple months) I should open up about female issues a touch in that case, but I typically don't. If menstruation is mentioned (in the two instances I've written it) it typically relates to men noticing it's absent, not that it occurs. I guess there's no reason I should shy away from the subject, but it just never felt like something I wanted to make a big deal of. I mean, in my life, it's a relatively quiet thing. And being 34 and having four kids, there were like eight years where I only had like 10 cycles. HA! In history, women didn't really have to deal with it like we do now. One in three women who crossed the plains as pioneers was pregnant. Childbearing years were shorter than they are now and so many infants died, miscarriages occurred, and lets not forget that nursing an infant can keep you infertile for two years (not typical with the modern diet). I went 6-8 months without a cycle while nursing my kids. If I hadn't introduced food when they begged for it, who knows.
BTW, since we're talking lady issues, menopause is another I haven't really written but have thought about. In my WiP one of my characters is 43 and I figured she's already past her childbearing years. I know in history menopause set on earlier, so I'm okay with that. Writers typically create younger characters, but part of her personality is a feeling that she's past her prime. Anyways, menopause serves a natural function. By experiencing the hormonal shifts later in life, women actually extend their years. I know it sounds weird, but I watched a program on it and read some books that say that it helped humans to maintain their family groups, to have matriarchs in our past. Women tended to hold families together and a child had a much higher chance of surviving if it had a mother and grandmother alive. I thought that was interesting.
Alright, so there's my thoughts on female issues today. I love this thread for some reason.
Yeah, it's hard to describe a scene in a few sentences, but along with you know, menstruation, lice, arousal, etc. you can throw in the mix oral hygiene. It was a small mention but since I've brushed my teeth with sage leaves and it's actually really refreshing and a neat experience, I wanted it in a story. Why not throw it in there somewhere where it will make an impact? It seemed like something he'd notice and feel was important, rather than just throwing it in at random somewhere it got lost in basic camp life.
I think for me, the small details have the most impact if they're entered at points where they actually subvert attention to a main event. For example if you had a character in the party sort of out of sorts but not in an attention-grabbing way. Then she sort of refuses to take part in something like the rest of the party. When confronted about her lacking enthusiasm, she could respond with a sort of, "I'm just in need of a little space and privacy. I'm a woman and you're not. Get off my back." And I can just imagine a male party leader responding. Sort of a, "Oh....I see....uh...sorry i bothered you." Or not. Just saying. That's probably just in my head because later in the story i mentioned above, the party sort of have a conflict. The MC's sisters join him on the road and the older sister is slowly degrading. Her mood becomes sullen. She's short and snippy and unpleasant. Her real reason is because she is troubled because of health issues with another member of the party, but when two of the young men in the party sort of push everyone's buttons with a friendly competition over everything they can talk about, the tension snaps. The younger sister stands up and tells them to drop their pants and settle it once and for all, because she and everyone else is tired of hearing who knows more about hallucinogenic moths, who swims fastest, etc.
I have considered whether (because there are three women traveling in that group, for more than a couple months) I should open up about female issues a touch in that case, but I typically don't. If menstruation is mentioned (in the two instances I've written it) it typically relates to men noticing it's absent, not that it occurs. I guess there's no reason I should shy away from the subject, but it just never felt like something I wanted to make a big deal of. I mean, in my life, it's a relatively quiet thing. And being 34 and having four kids, there were like eight years where I only had like 10 cycles. HA! In history, women didn't really have to deal with it like we do now. One in three women who crossed the plains as pioneers was pregnant. Childbearing years were shorter than they are now and so many infants died, miscarriages occurred, and lets not forget that nursing an infant can keep you infertile for two years (not typical with the modern diet). I went 6-8 months without a cycle while nursing my kids. If I hadn't introduced food when they begged for it, who knows.
BTW, since we're talking lady issues, menopause is another I haven't really written but have thought about. In my WiP one of my characters is 43 and I figured she's already past her childbearing years. I know in history menopause set on earlier, so I'm okay with that. Writers typically create younger characters, but part of her personality is a feeling that she's past her prime. Anyways, menopause serves a natural function. By experiencing the hormonal shifts later in life, women actually extend their years. I know it sounds weird, but I watched a program on it and read some books that say that it helped humans to maintain their family groups, to have matriarchs in our past. Women tended to hold families together and a child had a much higher chance of surviving if it had a mother and grandmother alive. I thought that was interesting.
Alright, so there's my thoughts on female issues today. I love this thread for some reason.
- Thread starter
- #93
Tom
Istar
God, what happened to my thread? I haven't checked up on it in a few days, and I now I see the remnants of a great and bloody battle...maybe I ought to try and stay in the loop from now on.
I just wanted to add that I agree with DaFlaminUnicorn's post from a while back--it really bugs me that when girls get mad, they're always asked if they have PMS/are on their period. Men get angry all the time, but women aren't allowed to unless influenced by their hormones? And it's considered irrational anger as well--even if the woman is angry over a serious thing!
Guys, I have sort of a confession. I'm non-binary, meaning I consider myself neither fully male nor fully female, but biologically I'm female. This may come as a shock to some of you, since I know I come across as masculine. And that's really how I am--I'm very masculine both physically and mentally.
So, you guys might also have noticed that I'm kind of a snarly person. I'm sarcastic, quick-tempered, and sometimes downright volatile. Even though I dress and act in a very masculine manner, I'm constantly asked if I'm on my period because of my temperament. It annoys me to no end.
What I've noticed is that when someone isn't sure about my gender or thinks I am male, they treat my anger as if it is reasonable, rational, and justified. When someone knows I'm female, they're more likely to say that I'm overreacting, that I'm not being rational, etc. Coincidence? Of course not.
So there's my ranting for the day. And don't you guys dare treat me differently now that you know about me. If you've been referring to me using male pronouns, keep it up. If your picture of me in your head is male, I don't mind. Gender is not an issue for me.
I just wanted to add that I agree with DaFlaminUnicorn's post from a while back--it really bugs me that when girls get mad, they're always asked if they have PMS/are on their period. Men get angry all the time, but women aren't allowed to unless influenced by their hormones? And it's considered irrational anger as well--even if the woman is angry over a serious thing!
Guys, I have sort of a confession. I'm non-binary, meaning I consider myself neither fully male nor fully female, but biologically I'm female. This may come as a shock to some of you, since I know I come across as masculine. And that's really how I am--I'm very masculine both physically and mentally.
So, you guys might also have noticed that I'm kind of a snarly person. I'm sarcastic, quick-tempered, and sometimes downright volatile. Even though I dress and act in a very masculine manner, I'm constantly asked if I'm on my period because of my temperament. It annoys me to no end.
What I've noticed is that when someone isn't sure about my gender or thinks I am male, they treat my anger as if it is reasonable, rational, and justified. When someone knows I'm female, they're more likely to say that I'm overreacting, that I'm not being rational, etc. Coincidence? Of course not.
So there's my ranting for the day. And don't you guys dare treat me differently now that you know about me. If you've been referring to me using male pronouns, keep it up. If your picture of me in your head is male, I don't mind. Gender is not an issue for me.
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Thanks for sharing. You have a unique perspective on the world, Tom.
That is one of the great values of this community. We can share experiences and points of view, without concern for judgment. As writers alone, that is an extremely valuable asset. After all, what is writing and reading other than living the lives of others and sharing experiences?
Personally, I'm usually in the dark when it comes to menstruation. I couldn't tell you what my wife's cycle is. I just find out when it happens, even though it's a monthly occurrence. Silly, huh?
Anyway, point being, I don't blame any mood swings or temperament changes I see in her on menstruation, because I don't think about it much. I only link mood to her period if she tells me she's PMSing and has noticed it herself.
That is one of the great values of this community. We can share experiences and points of view, without concern for judgment. As writers alone, that is an extremely valuable asset. After all, what is writing and reading other than living the lives of others and sharing experiences?
Personally, I'm usually in the dark when it comes to menstruation. I couldn't tell you what my wife's cycle is. I just find out when it happens, even though it's a monthly occurrence. Silly, huh?
Anyway, point being, I don't blame any mood swings or temperament changes I see in her on menstruation, because I don't think about it much. I only link mood to her period if she tells me she's PMSing and has noticed it herself.
Jabrosky
Banned
I don't disagree with you that too many people hold men and women to double standards when it comes to perceiving anger or rationality. But for my own part, I would say the rationality or "reasonableness" of anyone's anger depends on what they're getting angry over and whether I sympathize with them. If a guy gets angry over stupid stuff, he's no more rational than a woman who gets angry over the same stupid stuff. A moron is a moron regardless of their reproductive plumping.
I will admit that certain opinions you've voiced recently have come into conflict with my own, and I'd be lying if I said I never felt irritated with you. But during all those instances, I can honestly say I still imagined you as a cis-gendered man, not a biological woman with non-binary psychology. Now if I were to dismiss anything you said just because I thought you had a certain sex or gender identity, regardless of your opinion's validity, that would be a sexist ad hominem.
Yeah, I don't think God had anything to do with this. If anything it came from a much lower and warmer place.
It may be different depending on what part of the world you're at, but around here guys get asked that too when they get mad. It's quite common for me to hear someone say to a guy, "Dude, stop PMSing." It seems to have evolved, at least temporarily where I'm at, into a phrase that isn't always to be taken literally, like when someone uses the word "couple" in reference to greater than two things.
I'm not saying it's necessarily OK to say this to a woman, especially when it's meant literally, and you don't know them, but there are things that are said to men that are in the same ball park that don't have an analogue for a woman. For example, when a woman holds her fingers close together in reference to a guy having a a small pee-pee. I've seen that being used in all variety of situations including a reference to an angry man. He's just angry because he's got a small pee-pee.
I always thought you looked like Harry Potter accidentally lighting his chest hair on fire.
Thanks for sharing. This came as a pleasant surprise. I won't use "he" but I'll still call you Tom. And yes, you're still the same Tom to me.
Nimue
Auror
O Lord, Tom, if you're snarly, what does that make me? ...Nobody answer that.
But thank you for sharing with us! I've met a couple of nonbinary folks on other forums, and I always think it's awesome how the internet is such a flexible place for self-expression. We see each other as we present ourselves, without preconceptions. ...Well, the nice parts of the internet, anyway. The not-nice parts aren't good for much of anything.
Regarding PMS, I think it's important to recognize that even if someone's feelings are being amplified by hormonal changes, they still feel very real--I mean, they are real, because emotions are completely subjective. Minimizing someone's feelings doesn't change the pain or anger they're going through. And the tipping point for those feelings may be an entirely valid issue, even if tears and shouting aren't the usual way she brings it up.
I generally don't notice mood problems during my cycle, although I do have bad months where the full moon transforms me into a ball of sadness and self-loathing. Incidentally how I spent my teens. Which is a (possibly) good point for any men trying to imagine what this feels like--remember your teenage years and how everything felt so disastrous and important? Hormonal changes are not your friend, up to and including acne breakouts. It's not really that dramatic for me, but it varies from person to person. I thank the powers that be that I don't have PMDD or endometriosis.
But thank you for sharing with us! I've met a couple of nonbinary folks on other forums, and I always think it's awesome how the internet is such a flexible place for self-expression. We see each other as we present ourselves, without preconceptions. ...Well, the nice parts of the internet, anyway. The not-nice parts aren't good for much of anything.
Regarding PMS, I think it's important to recognize that even if someone's feelings are being amplified by hormonal changes, they still feel very real--I mean, they are real, because emotions are completely subjective. Minimizing someone's feelings doesn't change the pain or anger they're going through. And the tipping point for those feelings may be an entirely valid issue, even if tears and shouting aren't the usual way she brings it up.
I generally don't notice mood problems during my cycle, although I do have bad months where the full moon transforms me into a ball of sadness and self-loathing. Incidentally how I spent my teens. Which is a (possibly) good point for any men trying to imagine what this feels like--remember your teenage years and how everything felt so disastrous and important? Hormonal changes are not your friend, up to and including acne breakouts. It's not really that dramatic for me, but it varies from person to person. I thank the powers that be that I don't have PMDD or endometriosis.
Panda
Troubadour
Anyone else just lose the ability to look at Tom's avatar without seeing Harry Potter accidentally lighting his chest hair on fire? What has been seen cannot be unseen...