When it's Time to Stop Editing

[R. R. Hunter]

No, really, when should I stop?

As soon as the maintenance team finishes applying a new coat of paint to the Golden Gate Bridge, it's already time to add new paint to the other side again.

If you do a thing a lot, you are going to get better at it. I've noticed a gradient from bad to good writing from the beginning to the end of my current manuscript. Not perfect, but improved. I've already made several editing passes and keep finding new ways to apply polish. I remember a time when I thought my final chapters were the bees' knees and the coolest things ever. Then, I made the mistake of adding one, little, extra chapter. Like a little epilogue. It looks like night and day when I read through the last chapter and then the epilogue. Ugh!

When is enough going to be enough?! I feel like I'm caught up in a never-ending cycle of improving my edits.

Just for fun, I wanted to share a paragraph of what I wrote from a chapter one "draft" six months ago followed by a paragraph from the epilogue I wrote just last week:

----Bad Writing----
Daerion decided it would be a good idea to rub his ear, but his arm wouldn’t move. No. It was moving but he could not move it as fast as he wished. The pain was excruciating and he just wanted it to stop. He thought about ripping his ear completely off just to end the pounding, but that didn’t make his hand move any faster. Was there someone on top of him? He could see some traces of light in his peripherals but couldn’t seem to turn his head. There was only blackness above him; a great, empty nothingness. Whatever it was on top of him, it was apparently squeezing his throat. Daerion wanted to kick the thing off, but his legs were definitely pinned to the ground. His arm however, was still moving towards his ear, slowly but surely.


----Better Writing----
The kitchens seemed like the only place unaffected by the staffing cuts. After all, everyone needed to eat. Slipping into the busy kitchen unnoticed was the easy part; staying unnoticed was the truer challenge. Joell pulled an empty tray from its rack and carried it between the other ladies busy at their stations preparing the evening's meals. She approached the counter closest to the grand oven and set down the tray. Without hesitation, Joell moved loaves of bread from the warming racks into ovoid, cloth-covered baskets before sorting them onto her tray. Four loaves to a basket, alternating which end protruded. The trick was simple: She needed to look like she belonged there. Though the application was not so simple, she actually had to know how to belong there. Just like when applying her powers, she needed to understand how it all worked.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Hmmm, I might not have the happiest answer... I am a constant tinkerer... but so long as improvements are appreciable, I keep tinkering.

You are a "hedging" writer from what I see here, so I see things I would change in the beat of an eyelash.

First, since adverbs were a recent topic... what is the difference between "completely off" and "off"? There is none. What's the difference between "actually had to know" and "had to know" or "needed to know". However, I would also look at the potential redundancy in the two lines that involve "belonging" highlighted below. Other adverbs could be murdered too.

Hedging... couldn't seem to turn his head— He can or can't.
Some traces... a redundant form of hedging, "some" is pointless with the word trace.
apparently... a hedging adverb, two strikes and you're out
seemed like the only place... it was or wasn't, unless you want to make a more detailed description.

I would also look at your "was" usage, it is pointing to some weak spots in your prose. From simple rewordings to expanded descriptions, you can add quality layers by examining these little buggers. "Was" is one of the most overused words in writing along with "that".

Another overused and impotent word... like she belonged there. "There" could be deleted or expanded into something that tells what there is and why it matters, although I'd lean toward deletion since additional text and context might explain the "there".

No, really, when should I stop?

As soon as the maintenance team finishes applying a new coat of paint to the Golden Gate Bridge, it's already time to add new paint to the other side again.

If you do a thing a lot, you are going to get better at it. I've noticed a gradient from bad to good writing from the beginning to the end of my current manuscript. Not perfect, but improved. I've already made several editing passes and keep finding new ways to apply polish. I remember a time when I thought my final chapters were the bees' knees and the coolest things ever. Then, I made the mistake of adding one, little, extra chapter. Like a little epilogue. It looks like night and day when I read through the last chapter and then the epilogue. Ugh!

When is enough going to be enough?! I feel like I'm caught up in a never-ending cycle of improving my edits.

Just for fun, I wanted to share a paragraph of what I wrote from a chapter one "draft" six months ago followed by a paragraph from the epilogue I wrote just last week:

----Bad Writing----
Daerion decided it would be a good idea to rub his ear, but his arm wouldn’t move. No. It was moving but he could not move it as fast as he wished. The pain was excruciating and he just wanted it to stop. He thought about ripping his ear completely off just to end the pounding, but that didn’t make his hand move any faster. Was there someone on top of him? He could see some traces of light in his peripherals but couldn’t seem to turn his head. There was only blackness above him; a great, empty nothingness. Whatever it was on top of him, it was apparently squeezing his throat. Daerion wanted to kick the thing off, but his legs were definitely pinned to the ground. His arm however, was still moving towards his ear, slowly but surely.


----Better Writing----
The kitchens seemed like the only place unaffected by the staffing cuts. After all, everyone needed to eat. Slipping into the busy kitchen unnoticed was the easy part; staying unnoticed was the truer challenge. Joell pulled an empty tray from its rack and carried it between the other ladies busy at their stations preparing the evening's meals. She approached the counter closest to the grand oven and set down the tray. Without hesitation, Joell moved loaves of bread from the warming racks into ovoid, cloth-covered baskets before sorting them onto her tray. Four loaves to a basket, alternating which end protruded. The trick was simple: She needed to look like she belonged there. Though the application was not so simple, she actually had to know how to belong there. Just like when applying her powers, she needed to understand how it all worked.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

hahahaha! Oh gosh. I suppose it's all contextual anyways. If you read the "Bad Writing" excerpt in a Caribbean pirate accent, it sounds amazing lol

 

[Rexenm]

I have a funny decision to make when it comes to this. It’s either all or nothing. It is a method, not a style. One either knows how to drive automatic or stick shift, or they don’t. It is like telling someone to aim a gun, target acquired, not target hit. I am fairly practiced and in my grove, with not much writers block, but I do pause over a word or stumble across one once in a while. I also don’t stick to my dot points, but am affected by them. As for editing, I change a word here and there, just for the knack of it, I’m not totally serious about it anymore, but until I can make out the difference between the two when forming a blank idea in my mind, I don’t tap one fingers, let alone two or three.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

You are a "hedging" writer from what I see here, so I see things I would change in the beat of an eyelash.

Yeah, see, there's always room for improvement. I threw out the "bad writing" excerpt a long time ago, the chapter one now is completely different. I just wanted to show some contrast. That being said, the "better writing" excerpt only has half the number of 'was's, so I am doing a bit better lol

Edit: I love the Hemingway.ai editor because it helps me locate those "hedge" qualifiers. I tossed that excerpt into Hemingway and it only highlighted the word "Just" as a hedge word to omit. Just goes to show that we can't always rely on these programs.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Yeah, programs are limited. There are ways to hedge without using a word they'd identify. I didn't even know it did that, LOL.

I stopped tinkering with Eve of Snows when I got to the point that the edits were minor rewordings that might be better. I'd find myself making a change, then changing back, and I found nothing that needed to change in order to keep voice consistent. It's a tough call, in particular when writing a series, where you don't want to get to the end of Book 3 and look back at book 1 and say, "Well, damn."

Yeah, see, there's always room for improvement. I threw out the "bad writing" excerpt a long time ago, the chapter one now is completely different. I just wanted to show some contrast. That being said, the "better writing" excerpt only has half the number of 'was's, so I am doing a bit better lol

Edit: I love the Hemingway.ai editor because it helps me locate those "hedge" qualifiers. I tossed that excerpt into Hemingway and it only highlighted the word "Just" as a hedge word to omit. Just goes to show that we can't always rely on these programs.

 

[Rexenm]

I sometimes check facts in this way.

----Bad Writing----

Daerion decided it would be a good idea to rub his ear, but his arm wouldn’t move. No. It was moving but he could not move it as fast as he wished. The pain was excruciating and he just wanted it to stop. He thought about ripping his ear completely off just to end the pounding, but that didn’t make his hand move any faster.

He is in a void. Sensory functions acknowledged. No. Some luck. I would remove the last section in the comma.

Was there someone on top of him? He could see some traces of light in his peripherals but couldn’t seem to turn his head. There was only blackness above him; a great, empty nothingness. Whatever it was on top of him, it was apparently squeezing his throat.

He is in the lack. He is probably being choked. Does he have water in the throat?

Daerion wanted to kick the thing off, but his legs were definitely pinned to the ground. His arm however, was still moving towards his ear, slowly but surely.

Pure instinct.

----Better Writing----

The kitchens seemed like the only place unaffected by the staffing cuts. After all, everyone needed to eat. Slipping into the busy kitchen unnoticed was the easy part; staying unnoticed was the truer challenge.

Sneaking, lazy, facts.

Joell pulled an empty tray from its rack and carried it between the other ladies busy at their stations preparing the evening's meals. She approached the counter closest to the grand oven and set down the tray. Without hesitation, Joell moved loaves of bread from the warming racks into ovoid, cloth-covered baskets before sorting them onto her tray.

Yes, precious.

Four loaves to a basket, alternating which end protruded. The trick was simple: She needed to look like she belonged there. Though the application was not so simple, she actually had to know how to belong there. Just like when applying her powers, she needed to understand how it all worked.

This last bit seems like she knows what she is doing, like she has studied it, not just the act of stealing it.

To me, the difference in editing, is like covering up friction. Friction is the defining moment of joy in a story. Something to keep me on the edge of my seat.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

It's a tough call, in particular when writing a series, where you don't want to get to the end of Book 3 and look back at book 1 and say, "Well, damn."

And that right there scares me. I have 2 more books planned to follow this one, but I would like to iron out the major and minor story beats before I hit publish. We'll see how that goes. Great. Something else I need to worry about. I love writing!

This last bit seems like she knows what she is doing, like she has studied it, not just the act of stealing it.

To me, the difference in editing, is like covering up friction. Friction is the defining moment of joy in a story. Something to keep me on the edge of my seat.

This is my fault for ripping out two unrelated paragraphs and posting them with no context. Don't get me wrong, the critiques are MORE than welcome, and I appreciate them all. The "bad" writing is bad; I flushed it a long time ago. I selected the "better" excerpt to show both action and character inflections. But there's too much that has to be inferred if the excerpt is to be understood. Little Joell has meticulously set up her excursion into the kitchens. She's a ward of a castle lord and does not need to steal anything, but she wants to.

Anyway! I just need to find my stopping point, bite the bullet, and move forward with release. Easier said than done.

 

[Rexenm]

I understand good writing and bad writing, but how about evil writing? Maybe bad is the worst, when it comes down, to it. I come up with all sorts of different styles, but there are really just two methods, doing it, not doing it, or doing it. A little puzzle. The land of milk and honey.

 

[pmmg]

I stopped tinkering with Eve of Snows when I got to the point that the edits were minor rewordings that might be better. I'd find myself making a change, then changing back, and I found nothing that needed to change in order to keep voice consistent. It's a tough call, in particular when writing a series, where you don't want to get to the end of Book 3 and look back at book 1 and say, "Well, damn."

Thats how I feel with book one, but the editors I sampled, dinged almost every word. Crazy. I think it never ends, you just walk away and move on.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

Thats how I feel with book one, but the editors I sampled, dinged almost every word. Crazy. I think it never ends, you just walk away and move on.

Those editors get paid to edit. If you give them something they can't edit, they can't get paid. That's wishful thinking, I know, but keep it in mind. You don't have to accept everything your editor points out. If books were like paintings, all of the art in galleries would look the identical (according to the gallery's suggested edits)

 

[pmmg]

Well...I am aware.

I want to see it for myself. If the experience is good and useful, I may do it again. If not, I am okay with being on my own. But something you cant know till you jump in.

 

[R. R. Hunter]

Well, you did say you were giving them samples

If you take your car to a mechanic to have it fixed, (depending on the mechanic) they may just point out a few extra "necessary" repairs that turn a $100 invoice into a $2,000.

It is in the editor's best interest to find as many mistakes in your sample as possible.

From what I've learned so far, there is certainly a standard of quality that makes a book good or bad. But so much of it depends on the author's style. I can remember reading books and watching movies thinking I would never be able to write such deep, captivating words and meaningful, engaging dialogues. I tried a bunch and failed a bunch, but overtime, I got to a place where I was actually happy with the product I spit out. Not so happy that I wouldn't try to improve it, but, I found out I could be just as capable as my favorite writers and directors. I'm not going to be the next Sanderson, Spielberg, or Rothfuss, but I can be the next me!

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I made minimal changes with my editor, more technical commas, and other similar stuff, cleaning up the manuscript for submission really... a word I misused—wish I could remember that, it was humorous—the occasional sentence that I went crazy on, heh heh. Otherwise, the dings were limited. By the time my editor saw it, I had the voice I wanted, and we rolled pretty damned fast.

Thats how I feel with book one, but the editors I sampled, dinged almost every word. Crazy. I think it never ends, you just walk away and move on.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Actually, with unpaid samples, I'd expect a lighter touch. Who wants to hire someone who makes their pages look like a redacted CIA document? Only in red.

In fact, when I got editing samples, I sent out a copy that had too many adverbial clauses at the start of sentences, and only one editor called me on it. I hired her.

Well, you did say you were giving them samples

If you take your car to a mechanic to have it fixed, (depending on the mechanic) they may just point out a few extra "necessary" repairs that turn a $100 invoice into a $2,000.

It is in the editor's best interest to find as many mistakes in your sample as possible.

From what I've learned so far, there is certainly a standard of quality that makes a book good or bad. But so much of it depends on the author's style. I can remember reading books and watching movies thinking I would never be able to write such deep, captivating words and meaningful, engaging dialogues. I tried a bunch and failed a bunch, but overtime, I got to a place where I was actually happy with the product I spit out. Not so happy that I wouldn't try to improve it, but, I found out I could be just as capable as my favorite writers and directors. I'm not going to be the next Sanderson, Spielberg, or Rothfuss, but I can be the next me!

 

[pmmg]

Well, you did say you were giving them samples

If you take your car to a mechanic to have it fixed, (depending on the mechanic) they may just point out a few extra "necessary" repairs that turn a $100 invoice into a $2,000.

It is in the editor's best interest to find as many mistakes in your sample as possible.

From what I've learned so far, there is certainly a standard of quality that makes a book good or bad. But so much of it depends on the author's style. I can remember reading books and watching movies thinking I would never be able to write such deep, captivating words and meaningful, engaging dialogues. I tried a bunch and failed a bunch, but overtime, I got to a place where I was actually happy with the product I spit out. Not so happy that I wouldn't try to improve it, but, I found out I could be just as capable as my favorite writers and directors. I'm not going to be the next Sanderson, Spielberg, or Rothfuss, but I can be the next me!

I'd be happy to share my thoughts and experience. Will probably do it in my own thread later.


Anyway...I did get samples back from three editors, but the comments I got had me asking more questions not less.

The first one, I sent the opening to. They commented on my passive voice, and put red ink in a few places. Okay, fair enough, but....the opening is in a different tone than the rest. So the passive voice may be a misnomer. I think I sent them the wrong sample. I did not think about it properly. I'd be interested if they were on page 150 and still thought it was passive voice.

The second one, I sent the same snippet (cause how else to compare?), and a portion that was a blocky descriptive text, and one that was more dialogy, and from the middle. They put red ink on every sentence. And...I don't disagree, I just think readers will be a bit more forgiving than that. In one place, I said the Character had burns on their back, and they commented no one can see their back, so this is out of place. In another I had a ship, and they asked what does the ship look like....well, if I had sent them an earlier part, they would have gotten a description of the ship. My thoughts after reading their comments were 1) the would have me rewrite every sentence, 2) if I did, I would risk losing the voice, and 3) if I stopped at every place to describe every detail, it would balloon to twice its size and be less interesting. (One of the things I work at, is not putting in things that waste the readers time and attention. As has been said, no Weathertops from me).

Third editor declined saying I was not ready for them. They sent me an article on avoiding purple prose......... Ummmm.... I think we were not a match.

Some others declined without comment, or saying they were too busy. One wanted $1800...so no...

However, I decided I want to learn and be good at this craft. I've done as much research as I can, and probably more than most. I am interested in making the right steps, and part of that is an editor. I need to have one look at the whole thing to get an accurate assessment. It will cost me money, but so does a lot of other stuff. $1K for an education is about market rate. It wont be the most I've paid to learn something.

How do I know I have the right one? I don't. I get comments all over the place, from this is purple prose to this is great, and everyone hates my use of commas, and everyone marks different things. I've looked at it 100's of times. It looks good to me, I would publish it. But, I know i have a weakness, I dont see missing words. I need someone to read it and approve it as mistake free as possible.

I want to put the energy into book 1, and then use that to gauge book 2. Book 2 has only had one rewrite, and one reader so far. Its way behind on the editing scale. Book 3 is days away from being done. In about a week, I will be putting more energy into getting the first ready to publish.

I really hope this editor is the right one for me. The only way to know if see what they got. If I get the wrong vibes, I may try another and compare, but that runs the $$$ up. What can you do? I am eager to see what there is. So far, I like her energy, and what she said in her bio.

If it turns out its just the same I could have gotten with a good beta reader, or critique on Scribophile....I will probably pass on paying for more.

Truth is, I am eager to get into the whole marketing side, and see what there is to find out. And yes, it will cost $$$. Hopefully its an investment, and not an expensive hobby.

 

[ThinkerX]

Long ago, I made the decision not to publish the first book in a series unless I had at least a passable rough draft of the first book in the series, just to avoid writing myself into a corner. So... I spent ten years writing and rewriting six books (well, more than that, but...)

The other thing I do is to set drafts aside and let them cool down. I write the first draft, then put it away for a few months while I work on something else. Then when I do get back to it, it 'reads fresh,' making it far, far easier to spot problem sections. I finish the second draft, I do the same. From there, it is usually a 'rewrite lite' or a 'heavy edit,' followed by a what seems like endless technical edit passes, most of them focused on different things. There were a couple of books I had to do full rewrites on four or five times, plus the edit passes, which sucked.

 

[pmmg]

I found that setting things aside to cool down never worked for me. It might last for about 3 pages, but very quickly, I will be back to the same mode as if I never stepped away in the first place.

 

[ThinkerX]

I found that setting things aside to cool down never worked for me. It might last for about 3 pages, but very quickly, I will be back to the same mode as if I never stepped away in the first place.

In that case, good thing you have editors.

I understand you are currently working on book 3 of 5. How long since you went back and read book 1 from start to finish?

 

[pmmg]

Just before I started book 3 And I will again soon. I have to add some small things that book 3 brought up. Like, I decided there would be a new type of metal somewhere along the way, and it would have been present in book one. So I have to go mention it. That kind of stuff.