Why Latin?

[arbiter117]

In many magical settings Latin is often the basis of the magic language (fantasy or paranormal). I have no problem with it overall, except when it doesn't make sense in the context of the story.

I was watching Supernatural the other day and realized that (along with most exorcism-style stories) the proper way to exorcise a demon or a ghost is through Latin phrases. Not a problem here, but for the fact that these phrases are all based on Christianity and the power of Christ. The only problem with this setup is that Jesus didn't speak Latin. He spoke Aramaic, and maybe Greek (the most common Mediterranean language). So why does Latin invoke the power of God?

That's not the only problem with Latin. It's a dead language. Nobody knows how to pronounce Latin correctly. Latin speakers just base their accent on the vocal offspring of Latin. And since the language must be spoken correctly (as Hermione and others would argue) few to no people in a modern context would be able to use magic or perform exorcisms.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this stuff, but what's your take on Latin (or very closely structured relatives found in 7 book adventures, etc...) as the magic language?

 

[Ireth]

I think it's because of the way Latin was and is widely used by the Roman Catholic Church in their liturgies and such. Whatever its origins, it's been entrenched in holy connotations for hundreds of years.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

I really like how Butcher handles language in the Dresden files. It's not needed really, but it helps to focus your thoughts. Sometimes he uses latin, other times Spanish, other other times fake latin (flckum bicus).

 

[Jabrosky]

Somewhere along the line, English-speakers got the idea that words of Greco-Latin origin sounded fancier or more formal than our native Germanic vocabulary. That's also why we draw so much scientific jargon, not to mention animal names like Homo sapiens or Tyrannosaurus rex, from Greek and Latin. I guess our ancestors in England decided they wanted to associate themselves with the "civilized" Greco-Roman culture, maybe for the same reasons as certain African-Americans like to identify with ancient Egypt or Nubia (though to be sure, West Africa had extensive empires of its own).

That's not the only problem with Latin. It's a dead language. Nobody knows how to pronounce Latin correctly. Latin speakers just base their accent on the vocal offspring of Latin.

On a semi-related note, I get irritated whenever I hear Roman characters speak with British accents in movies or other media. To the extent that it would sound like any accents still around, I would think the ancient Roman accent would have sounded more Italian, or maybe Spanish. It would have been the northern "barbarians" of the era who sounded closest to British.

Hey, since the Romans spoke Latin, would that make them the original Latinos?

 

[X Equestris]

I think Jabrosky hit it on the head: Latin and Greek sound fancy, they're used in a lot of formal work, and the languages evoke a sense of "cultured".

 

[Penpilot]

I use Latin a bit, mostly because it sits on that border between familiar and foreign. And as Jabrosky mentioned, it kind of sounds fancy. Also it's a lot easier than creating something yourself.

 

[CupofJoe]

Somewhere along the line, English-speakers got the idea that words of Greco-Latin origin sounded fancier or more formal than our native Germanic vocabulary. That's also why we draw so much scientific jargon, not to mention animal names like Homo sapiens or Tyrannosaurus rex, from Greek and Latin. I guess our ancestors in England decided they wanted to associate themselves with the "civilized" Greco-Roman culture, maybe for the same reasons as certain African-Americans like to identify with ancient Egypt or Nubia (though to be sure, West Africa had extensive empires of its own).

On a semi-related note, I get irritated whenever I hear Roman characters speak with British accents in movies or other media. To the extent that it would sound like any accents still around, I would think the ancient Roman accent would have sounded more Italian, or maybe Spanish. It would have been the northern "barbarians" of the era who sounded closest to British.

I wouldn't just blame the English for using Latin [and Greek]... If you were an academic, up to 17/18 century [and later] you had to write in Latin to get people to read it across Europe... many great ideas were written in German, French and English but not not widely know across Europe because the people that might have been interested didn't read German, French or English.
And if you want one name for Flora and Fauna... then it helps it isn't in a specific national language...
It works the other way to... I know academics that write in American [as opposed to English] because "colour" is not an acceptable spelling for "color" in some academic journals.
As for English sounding Romans - that is pure Hollywood Baby! It has nothing to do with reality but creating an instant distance between them and the American audience...

 

[Mythopoet]

It has nothing to do with Latin and Greek sounding "fancy".

The thing is that the only standardized languages until quite recently, historically speaking, were the languages that scholars used. First Greek and then Latin. The languages spoken by locals was highly variable by regional dialects and most people who spoken those languages were not literate because for a long time there wasn't much point. Using Greek and Latin is how the literate and the scholars were able to communicate across regional lines without difficulty. If you wrote in your regional dialect, most people in the world wouldn't understand you, and then what would be the point? Latin was used by the Church for the same reason, it helped to keep the Church united across the globe if all priests could speak the same language and any mass goer could take part in the exact same mass no matter where they were. Until very recently anyone with a decent education would learn Latin and/or Greek. It was all about making communication easier within the educated, scholarly world. Latin and Greek only sound "fancy" to us moderns because it's not common to learn it anymore.

It became a go-to language for magic users because in medieval, renaissance and early modern europe it was the educated men and the scholar who studied things like alchemy, Hermeticism, and other areas of pseudo-science and magic. Magic was, essentially, a scholarly pursuit.

 

[Devor]

The Church uses Latin because it's a relatively simple language. Using Latin solves a myriad of translation issues that they would otherwise have to face communicating in hundreds of different languages. Remember, they needed a system that worked before there was even a printing press.

As for fantasy, I think it's also because Latin words look and read like words to people speaking English and other languages in Western Europe. A lot of languages read and sound awkward, even harsh to most English speakers.

 

[TheCatholicCrow]

That's not the only problem with Latin. It's a dead language. Nobody knows how to pronounce Latin correctly. Latin speakers just base their accent on the vocal offspring of Latin. And since the language must be spoken correctly few to no people in a modern context would be able to use magic or perform exorcisms.

I would like to challenge you on the claim that nobody knows how to properly pronounce it. Yes, it is dead (technically- because it is no longer people's native language). But it is not "dead" in the same way that the Harappan language is dead. Unless you believe that nobody knows how to speak Hebrew properly, this claim doesn't uphold. Latin has been used (and preserved) in both the Catholic Church and by Historians/Classics scholars throughout the world. Our "inability" to speak the language is more our own humility rather than an admittance of defeat.

There was never a time when Latin was not in use (though its no longer the official language of any modern country).

There are 2 "dialects" (if you will) of Latin - Ecclesiastical Latin (which uses "ch" sounds for C) and Classical Latin (which I am less familiar with but I believe it uses "K" [or "S"?] for C). Perhaps this is where the confusion of "we don't know how to say it" comes from?



Even in fiction, most of our perceptions of magic vs religion stems from our understanding of religion and magic in reality.

It depends on whether the ritual is about the words or the magical/ritualistic repetition of it. The pronunciation of the language matters more if you view it as a magical ritual rather than a religious ritual. (Here I'm using the Durkheim definition for both.) In a religious ritual the order of the words might matter (saying the prayers in order) but the cadence you say them in usually do not. It is not unusual for magical rituals to be ridiculously specific about the ritual (which some argue allows a great deal of leeway- ie- your magic ritual didn't work because it takes a full month to complete and you forgot to do step 82 on the third Tuesday etc.) People will have a tendency to back their religion no matter what while, even in cultures that accept them, magical practices are usually view with more skepticism (possibly because the shaman/magician is often compensated for the ritual).

So ... in religion I can mispronounce the word "Jesus" but the "magic" in the ritual comes not from me/the exorcist but from God/Christ. In magic, the power usually is dependent on my ability to line my ducks in a row then dot my i's and cross my t's, hold my breath and hope the ritual works.

In Protestant countries (during the witch trials) Catholics were accused of being "Pagan". I've read several books which claim that they actually persecuted & killed more than the Spanish Inquisition but of course it's hard to say for certain. Anyway, this same objection of "Jesus didn't speak Latin" was presented and Catholicism was portrayed as being a ritualistic, "magical" religion (as opposed to the no non-sense Puritans, Anabaptists, Lutherans, etc.)

 

[TheCatholicCrow]

There is also a widespread belief (in most Protestant religions) that if you are a "God-fearing, Bible-reading, Jesus-loving Christian" you will be "saved" and therefore not need an exorcism. How can the devil/demons possess you if you're "saved"?

Catholicism is more blunt in its (Augustinian) teachings which basically say if you're a human you're fair game for demons. Therefore, we need trained exorcists on call - always.

To be fair, there are some really interesting religious rituals for Islamic exorcisms. I've seen several films of indigeous exorcisms and I have to say they vary quite a bit. While I rejoice at the use of Latin in modern culture, I do wish some of the other rituals were better represented.

So ... if you're looking for something different check out Hindu exorcisms ... (dancing, whipping hair around, singing ...) it's got that "old timey" feel to it and they're just awesome.

 

[Tom]

I'm Protestant, so I feel I'm reasonably qualified to give an explanation for the belief in demons being unable to possess saved Christians. Really it isn't the "God-fearing, Bible-reading, Jesus-loving" thing that the belief stems from (though that's also an important part of Christianity)--we Protestants believe that when a person accepts Christ as their savior, the Holy Spirit comes to live in that person. The Holy Spirit is one Person in the Trinity, and demons cannot enter a person who is filled with the presence of God. Basically you're surrounded by a Holy force field that demons can't get through.

Huh, Catholic exorcisms. I really don't know much about them, but they sound fascinating. Can you provide more information?

 

[skip.knox]

I echo the point that we actually have a fairly decent idea of how Latin is pronounced. Not only that, we have a good idea of variations in pronunciation. That doesn't mean we have certainty, but it's just wrong to say we have no idea about it.

The point others have made about Latin being the language of learning is right on point, especially the point about common speech being so highly variable. For a very long time there was high variability in spelling, grammar and even in word meaning in the vernacular tongues. This can drive a person nuts when trying to read manuscripts.

Moreover, also for a very long time, Latin had a range of technical words lacking in the vernacular. This was especially true in areas such as medicine, law and theology (all three being among the first degrees offered by universities). When the time came to write down the silliness surrounding conjuring and spell-casting (late Middle Ages / early modern era), Latin was really the only language up to the task, with Hebrew a close second.

I don't disagree with people saying that Latin "sounds fancy" to the ordinary ear, and that as such it's an easy out for Hollywood and other such sources. But that doesn't necessarily mean the choice of Latin is off the table for the serious writer.

(says the fellow who is setting his first fantasy novel in the late Roman Empire)

-= Skip =-

 

[TheCatholicCrow]

Catholic exorcisms. I really don't know much about them, but they sound fascinating. Can you provide more information?

Every Protestant sect explains it differently. I didn't mean to be dismissive I just wanted to be brief. It's a topic that I find both academically and personally fascinating so I could go on about it for days (but my family often reminds me that's frowned upon in polite society).

Do you mean the ritual itself or beliefs surrounding it?

In Catholicism the idea generally goes that our souls are like Swiss cheese and spirits can never be in you but can work through you like air through a wind tunnel (or the cheese holes/ your soul). Thus when someone is possessed (obsessed, oppressed, or otherwise afflicted by demons) they might have strong faith but they are not impervious to the effects of evil spirits. This doesn't mean everyone will be afflicted, rather it is held that anyone can be. [To be fair though, the statistics lean towards women who have dabbled in occult practices though this is by no means an exclusive demographic.]

Before anything the person believed to be afflicted is supposed to receive Confession. (If their soul was not pure / "in a state of grace" they are in a state of sin and therefore attract evil unto themselves.) Becoming "spiritually cleansed" and avoiding sin frequently solves the issue. For when it doesn't ...

In the US (and I'd imagine most other places now) it is required that the person seeking an exorcism visit a mental health professional first. If they can't help (and it's not obviously a psychological disorder) their case will work its way up to the bishop who has to give permission for an exorcism to take place. (Here you can see there is a pre-ritual ritual ... church laws & such which perpetuates the image of Catholicism as a ritual-based religion.)

All priests are trained to do exorcisms but not all of them are qualified to do them (you're supposed to find one w the proper disposition who has the bishop's permission).

It has to be done in a Church (preferably one that is locked) and a series of holy objects (water, salt, relics, the Bible, etc) are presented (sometimes plain tap water is used and if the person "reacts" you know they're faking). The Ritual itself comes from the Roman Rite and is basically a series of prayers and readings from the Bible.

Real exorcisms are not single session battles of priest vs demon- the showdowns you see in film. They frequently take many sessions (sometimes years) to perform to completion (an hour or 2 a day). Even then people that are freed of demons may report afflictions years later.

Then there's the more recent notions of "Deliverance" ...

The closest depiction to real Catholic exorcisms can be seen in The Rite (w Anthony Hopkins) though there are still a few flaws in the film (namely that the final exorcism was a Deliverance - he was a deacon, not a consecrated priest and therefore not able to perform the rite). Most of the information was pretty consistent with Catholicism though (100X better than The Exorcist).

I don't want to derail this thread so I'll end it here.

If you're still interested in discussing this you can shoot me a PM. I can point you towards some great books on the subject.