Women dressing as men trope - what do we all think about it?

[LittleOwlbear]

My first thought reading this: don't refer to them as man's clothes, just as the piece of clothing you are refering to, so you avoid this alltogether. Just say "she likes wearing pants for practical reasons, in her free time she's wearing both, pants and dresses."

Also man's clothing ofc must be remade for most cis women bodies having a smaller frame, leaving room for breasts and a bit different hip-waist ratio. I made a few cosplays and learned it this way.

 

[Finchbearer]

That’s a nice gender-positive way of looking at things LittleOwlbear - and is largely accepted as the norm in the western world today, but I was referring to my writing which is set in a historical context, where women are expected to wear dresses, and deviating from the norm would be just that, a defiant act, or an act of rebellion and therefore anything really other than a dress would be considered ‘men’s clothing’.

 

[LittleOwlbear]

History was never so black and white tho and people never had a homogeneous mindset.

Especially in poorer classes it was quite normal ot not unseen for women doing "manly" things, if they needed to work.
There were in German and Austrian Middle Ages surprisingly quite a lot of women working as blacksmiths for example, supporting their husband's work, or keep doing their work after their husband died.

These really strict gender norms were forced on, and going against them was mostly frowned upon, in higher class ladies.
Normal people often couldn't afford to forbid a woman doing man's work, if they needed an additional pair of helping hands, and if they need these women in men's clothing riding horses or anything else that will be easier doing in pants, lot of people might accept this as well.

 

[Finchbearer]

Sure, in many ways in was a forced upon normative, for women to wear dresses, and even do hard laborious activities in them, keeping us in a sexist and restricted state, marked out not just by our genitals but also the way we present to the world and saying ‘hey I’m a woman because I wear a dress!’ - and I can see the appeal of ignoring the gendered nature of it all, but to ignore it I think is also dismissive of how powerful it would have been for it to be a conscious decision to wear clothing designed exclusively for men. It was only beginning to be widely accepted as a fashion choice (in western society by and large) for a woman to even consider wearing pantaloons or trousers in the 1920’s - and much of that choice was only available for upper class women to make, for they had relative freedom and money to make those choices. Working class women in the other hand who wore mens clothes may have also worn them out of choice, but the repercussions would have been far more severe, otherwise they may have worn mens clothes out of necessity, but it would have unlikely to have been a fashion choice. Nowadays those born biologically female (in western society) have the relative privilege of it not being a big deal to wear trousers everyday and never wearing a dress - it’s seen as a unisex item of clothing, but even as late as the 1950’s wearing trousers was not all that common for women.

 

[LittleOwlbear]

Sure, in many ways in was a forced upon normative, for women to wear dresses, and even do hard laborious activities in them, keeping us in a sexist and restricted state, marked out not just by our genitals but also the way we present to the world and saying ‘hey I’m a woman because I wear a dress!’ - and I can see the appeal of ignoring the gendered nature of it all, but to ignore it I think is also dismissive of how powerful it would have been for it to be a conscious decision to wear clothing designed exclusively for men. It was only beginning to be widely accepted as a fashion choice (in western society by and large) for a woman to even consider wearing pantaloons or trousers in the 1920’s - and much of that choice was only available for upper class women to make, for they had relative freedom and money to make those choices. Working class women in the other hand who wore mens clothes may have also worn them out of choice, but the repercussions would have been far more severe, otherwise they may have worn mens clothes out of necessity, but it would have unlikely to have been a fashion choice. Nowadays those born biologically female (in western society) have the relative privilege of it not being a big deal to wear trousers everyday and never wearing a dress - it’s seen as a unisex item of clothing, but even as late as the 1950’s wearing trousers was not all that common for women.

Sorry for asking, maybe I read over the line, but is it a real historical setting with fantasy, or a pseudo-historical setting?

Attack on Titan for example comes to mind, that's pseudo ca. 18th century. The women, and non-binary afab person, wear the military uniform ofc like the men do for fighting, but in their freetime some of them wear dresses and skirts and also do some typical female activities.

So if you care about criticism that could follow, and you don't want to make a feminist statement per se, maybe give every single of your characters the same, practical uniform, if you can write it into your setting logically.
Their opinions on dresses in their freetime is a secondary thought then.

 

[Finchbearer]

I would describe it as a fantasy set in a historical context with historical realism - and with that comes the restrictions of the time periods I am inspired by. Lol.

In fantasy you can go wild and essentially make your own rules, and I suppose I am playing by the rules a little bit to give the reader plenty of relatable subtext. There are lots of recognisable real world references that I wanted to work with.

I do have another story idea for example where it’s more high fantasy - real world clothing rules do not apply, and there’s an immense freedom to that. But for what I’m drawn mostly towards in terms of writing is exploring real world issues.

It does seem to me though that there seems to be a hatred for the ‘female character who dons men’s clothing’ trope - and so I was kind of questioning that.

 

[Nighty_Knight]

So I'm not going to take a side on the issue directly. But I do want to post this pic from one of my daughter's favorite shows:

Spoiler: Image

That's Sofia the First, a Disney TV princess, who spends most of her time in poofy frilly dresses.

That's her adventure outfit. It's clearly both functional and feminine.

Great examples. There are plenty of other examples too.
Look at the Witcher 3 Yennefer. She has technically 3 outfits in the game, her primary one she wears is this. Yennefer of Vengerberg

 

[Azul-din]

My first thought reading this: don't refer to them as man's clothes, just as the piece of clothing you are refering to, so you avoid this alltogether. Just say "she likes wearing pants for practical reasons, in her free time she's wearing both, pants and dresses."

Also man's clothing ofc must be remade for most cis women bodies having a smaller frame, leaving room for breasts and a bit different hip-waist ratio. I made a few cosplays and learned it this way.

My bad. You are quite correct. In mitigation. let me say that I grew up in the 40's and 50's, when gender branded clothing was like holy writ. There was one boy in my senior year who dressed in tight trousers, pink shirts and ballet slippers and the comment on his yearbook picture said, 'the man with the courage to be different.' This was not because we were so enlightened back then, just that the idea of someone we knew being openly gay was so unthinkable, not to mention against the law.

 

[Jackarandajam]

So there are some common themes that run throughout my storytelling - I love historical settings, so naturally I also enjoy working with the restrictions that this places on the narrative, such as horses as the main mode of transport, a strict patriarchy, modes of dress, ie. women in dresses, men in breeches.

I write many female main and minor characters and they’re all different, though sometimes for practicality, comfort or for personal preference they wear mens clothing.

The reasons vary, but mainly fall into the categories of; it gives them the opportunity to do what they want to do that wearing a dress would otherwise prevent them from doing. The other main reasons are for travel and comfort, rebellion and personal preference for what they like to wear every single day as part of their identity.

My reasoning is not to be making a feminist statement per se, but is more to show a realistic interpretation of how impractical wearing a long heavy and restrictive dress would be for certain activities, and also to speak to the personal characters of the women I write. It is also not a comment on gender identity, as in the female characters I write that might wear mens clothing at one point or another are not transgender. Historically speaking, women have worn men’s clothing many times over.

BUT, I have also read here there and everywhere that this ‘trope’ is one that many female readers see as a fallback for a somewhat anti-feminist plot device…the idea that in order for a female character to be strong or independent, she must must take on masculine traits or clothing is somehow poor writing.

So, that puts me in a quandary. Do I pander to the potential pushback from this sort of criticism, or do I just write my female characters who like to / have to wear men’s clothes?

Outline the societal expectations of the world your characters live in, and explain why the character wants to wear pants.
Your character doesn't have to want to wear pants for THE BEST reasons, just their own reasons, whether that's rebellion, practicality or espionage.
If it's rebellion, settling it with a simple conversation with a wiser character ("hey, maybe consider wearing whatever you want to wear and quit caring what other people think so much") could help you avoid backlash.
If it's practicality, one of the other characters could say something like "UGH I hate the way pants move with my legs, it's like doing chores wrapped in sandpaper."
If it's espionage, and there's a reason the character needs to be perceived as a man to pull off the goal, and the societal expectations you've already outlined make it clear that pants would encourage people to assume the person wearing them is a man, then I can't imagine that being an issue.