Worldbuilding a demonic pantheon

[Trailofstardust]

Some time ago, I got the idea for a middle-grade fantasy story involving demons from the Swedish book series "Demondeckarna" (title means "Demon Detectives"). Some of the concepts in the book were interesting but the execution and writing was sub-par. The characters were bland and undeveloped, and many concepts weren't explained well enough.

This is more like a rewrite/fanfiction rather than a serious story, but the source material is so bare bones it doesn't feel like plagiarism in my view, I think its almost like an original work that works off already existing concepts.

I want some help in figuring out the worldbuilding:

In "Demondeckarna" there's an underworld populated by demons and seven demonlords who rule them. For millennia they have played a nondescript game and the winner gains more power and the freedom to shape the human world as they see fit.

Each demonlord except one is based on one animal, their names are The Wolf, The Goat, The Serpent, The Crocodile, The Spider, The Fly and The Beast-King. The Beast-King is a chimera made of different animals with a humanoid body.

In my rewrite of canon the Crocodile is replaced with "the eagle" because I want all demonlords except the Beast-King to be animals considered traditional adversaries, all of them are rivals fighting for power, but except for the Beast-King who is special each have an enemy number one they hate the most.

I've been thinking about assigning a deadly sin to the demon-lords which makes sense according to the traditional symbolism given to each animal as well as their individual personalities, but I'm not sure which sin to give each.

My idea is that demons in this universe feed on human emotions and sins, and since Wrath is currently the least powerful the demon-lord of Anger, Bloodshed and Battle wants to turn the Earth into a war-torn wasteland.

The Beast-king is supposed to be the main antagonist who stands out from the other Demonlords, but Wrath as a sin doesn't stand out from the others, it isn't seen as the "worst" sin per se and thus it might not fit the character. In what ways could the Beast-King stand out from the other demon-lords, and would it be consistent to make him represent Wrath if he's special?

The Spider in canon is the Demonlord with the most positive view on humanity, even falling in love with a human. Since there are tales of seductive spider-demons in Japanese culture the spider could be Lust, but the Serpent is just as seductive since the Snake tempted Eve. The Wolf was the Spider's ally, which resulted in him being captured by the others, stripped of his powers and transformed into a cat.

My worldbuilding notes: Instead of being fallen angels, demons in this universe are born from emotion and represent mankind's darker nature. While the Underworld and demonkind have existed for eons, it was after the rise of humanity that they increased in number and gained sapience, since humans are far more intelligent and complex than any animal. With the invention of agriculture came the first kingdoms, and thus the first rulers feeding Pride, the wealthy began hoarding wealth from the masses feeding Greed, rulers competed for power feeding Envy, more resources became available for people to enjoy themselves and pursue pleasure feeding Gluttony, Sloth and Lust, wars were waged to expand territory feeding Wrath.

 

[pmmg]

No one owns an idea, but it may seem like you are borrowing it to people in the know. Your risk is that some may find it that way.

I bet beast-king would stand out if he was using his wrath on the other demons. He dont have to be the most recognized, just effective.

 

[Mad Swede]

I think I'd create your own setting and your own story.

That's partly because Wahlströms (who publish the books) have a reputation for coming down very hard on those who plagiarise their authors. But my main reason for telling you to create your own story and setting is that the Demondeckarna series is very very Swedish, and neither the story telling style nor the way the setting and characters are built translate very well to English.

I should add that the books in the series have got good reviews here in Sweden, and that as a parent who grew up in Sweden in the 1970s and early 1980s I find the books hilarious - there are some real parental bonuses in there.

 

[pmmg]

If they are as well known as Mad Swede is indicating, I think it would be even more likely some will recognize its source. Its great to be inspired, but I dont think you really want a reputation of lifting too much, and just making a clone.

 

[Trailofstardust]

I think I'd create your own setting and your own story.

That's partly because Wahlströms (who publish the books) have a reputation for coming down very hard on those who plagiarise their authors. But my main reason for telling you to create your own story and setting is that the Demondeckarna series is very very Swedish, and neither the story telling style nor the way the setting and characters are built translate very well to English.

I should add that the books in the series have got good reviews here in Sweden, and that as a parent who grew up in Sweden in the 1970s and early 1980s I find the books hilarious - there are some real parental bonuses in there.

Personally, I felt that characters and concepts weren't developed enough, things happened too fast and it felt "try-hard". It felt like the books were trying too hard to emulate "scary" kids media like gravity falls and Coraline.

 

[Trailofstardust]

I think I'd create your own setting and your own story.

That's partly because Wahlströms (who publish the books) have a reputation for coming down very hard on those who plagiarise their authors. But my main reason for telling you to create your own story and setting is that the Demondeckarna series is very very Swedish, and neither the story telling style nor the way the setting and characters are built translate very well to English.

I should add that the books in the series have got good reviews here in Sweden, and that as a parent who grew up in Sweden in the 1970s and early 1980s I find the books hilarious - there are some real parental bonuses in there.

Why dont the characters translate well to English?

 

[Queshire]

There's nothing wrong with writing it, though if you want to possibly make money from it then you'll have to change enough things to get around copyright.

 

[Mad Swede]

Why dont the characters translate well to English?

As I said, the Demondeckarna books are very, very Swedish. Even more so in some respects than Pippi Långstrump.

As authors we don't usually discuss it in this context, but when we write we often make certain implicit assumptions about our readers and the cultural references we share with them. This is quite noticeable in the Harry Potter books, at least to me - J K Rowling assumes that readers are familiar with the way British (and to a degree US) schools work so she doesn't detail or explain certain things in the setting.

This is also true of the Demondeckarna books. The authors assume Swedish readers, so a lot of things about the characters, the way they behave, the places they live, are taken for granted. You know roughly what the people are like, your schoolfriends are pretty like them and so are your real-life neighbours. You know what the town is like, there's an ICA, a school, it's like your home town and almost every other small town in Sweden. It means the whole story structure and style can be Swedish, because the readers are in on it. And that means the plot can move quite fast.

Translating a book like that is difficult because there are so many implicit cultural references. These get lost unless the translator does a full interpretation and adds things as a way of explaining the references. And that sort of interpretation doesn't usually get done. This is why the Swedish language translations of Harry Potter (and indeed the Discworld books) are so poor, many of the (British) cultural references get lost.

 

[Trailofstardust]

As I said, the Demondeckarna books are very, very Swedish. Even more so in some respects than Pippi Långstrump.

As authors we don't usually discuss it in this context, but when we write we often make certain implicit assumptions about our readers and the cultural references we share with them. This is quite noticeable in the Harry Potter books, at least to me - J K Rowling assumes that readers are familiar with the way British (and to a degree US) schools work so she doesn't detail or explain certain things in the setting.

This is also true of the Demondeckarna books. The authors assume Swedish readers, so a lot of things about the characters, the way they behave, the places they live, are taken for granted. You know roughly what the people are like, your schoolfriends are pretty like them and so are your real-life neighbours. You know what the town is like, there's an ICA, a school, it's like your home town and almost every other small town in Sweden. It means the whole story structure and style can be Swedish, because the readers are in on it. And that means the plot can move quite fast.

Translating a book like that is difficult because there are so many implicit cultural references. These get lost unless the translator does a full interpretation and adds things as a way of explaining the references. And that sort of interpretation doesn't usually get done. This is why the Swedish language translations of Harry Potter (and indeed the Discworld books) are so poor, many of the (British) cultural references get lost.

By "that means the plot can move quite fast." Is it because of the Swedish story-telling structure?

 

[Trailofstardust]

I think I'd create your own setting and your own story.

That's partly because Wahlströms (who publish the books) have a reputation for coming down very hard on those who plagiarise their authors. But my main reason for telling you to create your own story and setting is that the Demondeckarna series is very very Swedish, and neither the story telling style nor the way the setting and characters are built translate very well to English.

I should add that the books in the series have got good reviews here in Sweden, and that as a parent who grew up in Sweden in the 1970s and early 1980s I find the books hilarious - there are some real parental bonuses in there.

As for the assigning a sin to each demonlord, do you have any suggestions?

 

[Mad Swede]

By "that means the plot can move quite fast." Is it because of the Swedish story-telling structure?

No. It's because so many implicit assumptions are being made about what the reader already knows.

That said, the books also have a very Swedish story telling style, a style which can come across as more distant than modern British and US writing styles.

 

[pmmg]

As for the assigning a sin to each demonlord, do you have any suggestions?

I gonna say, I wrestled with commenting on that. The Deadly sins are not really japaneese, and so its like layering one culture over another. I am not sure they are an seamless match. But...I think the sins are somewhat universal, and Japan is not immune. But Demons do not represent one sin or another, they embody all of them to some degree. A demon or wrath, could also be envious, and such.

 

[Trailofstardust]

I gonna say, I wrestled with commenting on that. The Deadly sins are not really japaneese, and so its like layering one culture over another. I am not sure they are an seamless match. But...I think the sins are somewhat universal, and Japan is not immune. But Demons do not represent one sin or another, they embody all of them to some degree. A demon or wrath, could also be envious, and such.

Ok.
The demons are supposed to represent mankind's darker nature though. If one demon can embody multiple sins then how would you make each demonlord unique from each other?

 

[pmmg]

By giving them different goals, motivations and obstacles.

People have all of these traits and yet, we can make them different.

Course...some demons might feature some vices more than others. Lillith might not have as much wrath as Geryon, and Geryon not as much lust.

 

[Trailofstardust]

By giving them different goals, motivations and obstacles.

People have all of these traits and yet, we can make them different.

Course...some demons might feature some vices more than others. Lillith might not have as much wrath as Geryon, and Geryon not as much lust.

In that case, can you give suggestions for a primary sin for each demonlord?

 

[pmmg]

I am sure I can match a name to a sin, but...I don't think I am the person for that.

For me, it feels a little shallow for demons. Kind of like, I am wrathful, therefore I am on the evil side. I would say, wrath is a vice, but those with vices are not necessarily evil. A demon would be evil for different reasons. We all have vices.

 

[ThinkerX]

Perhaps borrowing from Scandinavian mythology such as the Kalevala might be a more fruitful approach. Linking 'sins' to specific demons is from Abrahamic (Jewish/Christian/Moslem) theology. In actuality, the respective demons would go with whatever 'sin' promoted their interests at a given point.

Kalevala - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Queshire]

I mean, linking demons to one of the seven deadly sins is a common thing in fiction.

 

[Finchbearer]

JK Rowling and Pratchett did not write their books with a global audience in mind, they didn’t know their books would become globally successful when writing them…do we ever know?? Same as the Swedish author, who probably wrote for a Swedish audience.

On stealing someone else’s idea, go further back…like way further back to Prose Edda or something that you can retell and it’s not going to breach copyright laws… take inspiration carefully, respectfully, otherwise come up with at least 5 major differences and 15 minor differences.

 

[Trailofstardust]

No. It's because so many implicit assumptions are being made about what the reader already knows.

That said, the books also have a very Swedish story telling style, a style which can come across as more distant than modern British and US writing styles.

Ok.
But do you think that the elements with the underworld being ruled by seven demonlords, each based on an animal: the goat, the wolf, the spider, the fly, the eagle, the snake and the beast-king, the main character being the half-human, half-demon son of the Spider demonlord and the Wolf being transformed into a cat would count as plagiarism if used together in another story?

This idea of mine isnt supposed to be published, but is more like fanfiction.