Ye olde short story format

[pmmg]

Just a quick ponderism,

But seems like most on the site are novel writers, or are aspiring to be, but I wonder how many not find a happy home in producing shorts stories instead. And along with that, do any write with an eye for any particular short story market instead. On other sites I have been on in the past, short stories were far more the currency of the site. It would not be unusual for there to be an effort to have a short story on of the month, and discussion about where such stories might find a home was far more common.

Short Stories do offer a lot of advantages over novel writing. The clearest being the faster path to feedback. Rather than writing how's my chapter 1 going, you would write instead, I'd like reviews on this completed story. Short stories are also a faster path to sales, if you can find the right market and submit regularly. And those short stories do not become less valuable over time. At some point, you can just compile them all and make a book of all your shorts. Completed works and sales are also a faster path to confidence and reward for one's efforts.

So...what do you think? Might not short stories be a better path to go for some of our many members? And if it is, how could we are MS support that better?

 

[skip.knox]

I wonder if worldbuilding figures into this. A great many of us have invented, or hope to invent, some new sort of world and populate it with new sorts of characters. That might be more difficult to do with a short story, maybe?

 

[Genly]

pmmg wrote: But seems like most on the site are novel writers, or are aspiring to be, but I wonder how many not find a happy home in producing shorts stories instead.

After getting a series of rejections from trad publishers for my novel, I'm trying to build a track record of publishing short stories. So far, I've only had one story published, but I'm sticking with this strategy. A track record of publication might help attract a publisher for the novel (maybe).

Anyway, a couple of points. I'm learning a lot by writing short stories, and I agree that this is one reason that MS members might find this format useful. Also, of course, it takes a lot less time to write a short story than a novel. Naturally, there are constraints in the shorter format. Worldbuilding is one of them. Too much in a short story can disrupt the narrative.

As for how MS can support writers in this process, my impression from the response to my work so far is that the first couple of pages of a short story are crucial in helping an editor decide whether to read more. This probably sounds pretty obvious, but maybe MS members should be encouraged to post the first couple of pages of their short stories so that the group can help with beta reading them. Not everyone has access to competent and knowledgeable beta readers, but this group has many.

Also, some suggestions about how to find markets to publish short stories would be helpful. I've been using Submission Grinder in this process. But suggestions from our members about where to send individual short stories that MS members might submit for beta reading would also be useful.

 

[skip.knox]

I have published at the following, and I just checked to make sure they're still operating.
Aphelion: The Webzine of Science Fiction and Fantasy
Bewildering Stories home page
Anotherealm.com

I have found all three magazines to be extremely friendly and helpful, with high editorial standards.

I'm also aware of this
Home Page
though I have not submitted there.

 

[Penpilot]

My focus is on novels, but I write short stories on occasion, too. I'm subscribed to a facebook group where they post about open calls for short story submissions. When one pops up that interests me, I'll try to submit.

In fact, some of my novels and upcoming novels are based on short stories I've written. But sometimes time makes it so it's about choosing to work on a short story vs work on the novel, and when that happens, the novel generally wins out.

 

[ThinkerX]

I wrote a dozen or so short stories for the old 'Iron Pen' challenge here, and later continued that series with 'Top Scribe.' Many of those stories were written to develop my primary world.

That said, I have written dozens of short stories and another dozen or so novellettes and novellas, a few of which were folded into my novels. Currently, I am prepping two of these novellas, 'Reset' and 'Disharmonious Spheres', for publication. (For that matter, 'Empire: Southern Heat' is a linked collection of novellas.)

 

[pmmg]

Had no idea you had that in you PP. For those interested, do you mind sharing the facebook groups?

 

[Penpilot]

Had no idea you had that in you PP. For those interested, do you mind sharing the facebook groups?

--https://www.facebook.com/groups/openspeculativemarkets--

 

[Waylen]

Just a quick ponderism,

But seems like most on the site are novel writers, or are aspiring to be, but I wonder how many not find a happy home in producing shorts stories instead. And along with that, do any write with an eye for any particular short story market instead. On other sites I have been on in the past, short stories were far more the currency of the site. It would not be unusual for there to be an effort to have a short story on of the month, and discussion about where such stories might find a home was far more common.

Short Stories do offer a lot of advantages over novel writing. The clearest being the faster path to feedback. Rather than writing how's my chapter 1 going, you would write instead, I'd like reviews on this completed story. Short stories are also a faster path to sales, if you can find the right market and submit regularly. And those short stories do not become less valuable over time. At some point, you can just compile them all and make a book of all your shorts. Completed works and sales are also a faster path to confidence and reward for one's efforts.

So...what do you think? Might not short stories be a better path to go for some of our many members? And if it is, how could we are MS support that better?

Great point. There is definitely value in writing short stories, as you've pointed out.

At the moment, my primary writing outlet has become episodic short stories, which I post on my blog. It’s satisfying to get ideas out and share them quickly.

ThinkerX, you mentioned writing short stories to develop your world. I’ve found the same to be true, as I also do that. I remember Brandon Sanderson saying something in one of his lectures: even if a piece of writing doesn’t make it into a novel, it can still be useful for understanding character motivations, cultures, or backstories. It becomes narrative scaffolding. Something along those lines.

 

[Mad Swede]

I've always thought (and been criticised for saying) that the best way to learn how to write fiction is through writing short stories. That's partly because I found it much easier to develop my own writing style by doing so, and partly because it made it easier and quicker for me to see what worked and what didn't. I also found it easier to learn how to develop story and character arcs, because in a short story these are much more apparent - if they don't exist you have a vignette or scene, not a story. I also found (and find) short stories easier to write because they rely more on economy of words which suits my dyslexia.

My first stories were all short stories, written on scraps of paper whilst I was serving on peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in various parts of the world. It was only later that I started writing novels, and then only after I'd managed to type my short stories into my PC. I like to think that the skills I developed with those first few short stories were what made my first novel good enough to be picked up for publication. I've since had my short stories published too, as well as the subsequent novels. I still write both short stories and novels.

With all that written, short stories are not easy. They require real writing discipline in terms of story and character arcs, dialogue and background details, because you as the author only have a limited number of words to get it all across. That doesn't mean you can't have interesting world building or character types, but what you can't do is go on at length about them. It's all about hinting and suggesting, learning how to convey these things in only a few words.

There is one thing novels and short stories have in common: you only have the first 250-300 words to draw the reader in...

 

[Incanus]

I’m a fan of short stories, for sure. Several of my favorite authors wrote either entirely, or primarily, in this form.

As Skip mentions, it can be tricky getting any significant world-building across in them. I had sort of developed a ‘side-world’ for this sort of thing, a world that doesn’t require a lot of exposition. It uses more recognizable fantasy elements most of the time. I love the idea of building up enough of them to publish them as a collection. Not there yet…

I will be tinkering around with getting a few shorts out in the world as I work on my novel. I’ve submitted to the Writers of the Future contest a couple of times now, and I may soon try out the paying market as well. Maybe next year-----

I would say that working on either shorts or novels is a good way to improve your craft. I’m not sure one is better than the other in this regard. I’m using what I’ve learned from novel writing in my current short story project, and what I learned from shorts has gone into my novel. It’s all good, as they say.

 

[pmmg]

I did not begin as a short story writer. My first three efforts at writing were all novel length tales. The first of which I had no idea it would grow to such length, and did not feel like I was writing a novel as I wrote it. The first two efforts were both good stories, but they were never ready to publish. I just had not learned the craft well enough to get them over the line. The third, however, I knew had potential, I loved the characters and the tale, and I knew it was fire, so I went with it. That story was, The Eye of Ebon, and I knew I must work to get it published. This desire started to change in me. I needed to find a proving ground, and for me...that was short stories. I began to write a lot of shorts then and looked to market them. I joined my first writers related forum, and became very active. The focus there was much more on story reviewing, and so I began to review the crap out of other people's stories. (This spirit of posting up stories and getting reviews much more the focus there, and that is kind of missing from MS...but I dont mind. The character of the site would change quite a bit if it was added).

My writing has always had a poetic nature to it, and in learning to write short stories, one skill that I picked up and honed was how to say a lot with only a few words, I used to call this 'the economy of words'. If you have only 100 words to say something, but you have to say it, every word used has to do a job. And so, there is a mastery of word usage one must gain that that becomes its own voice. Often I say, I have worked a lot on my story voice....well, that comes mostly from my days writing shorts and poetic works. (And also reviewing the same from others).

I did not have much luck with shorts with finding a home. Some got published, many...not. One of them, I know there is still a home waiting, but I dont put a lot of effort into finding it. In submitting my stories for publishing places ro consider, I got a lot of close but no cigar type rejection letters. Later, I learned to write with an eye at using them later to plug into the larger tale, so as not to go to waste. Quite a few have been plugged in to book 3 and book 4, and I bet the reader will not be able to tell. I used some of the challenges here to write the shorts story tales, but also keeping them close enough that they might turn into actual scenes in the big story.

But, its is definitely true, writing short stories for me was a faster path to feedback. and it was cauldron where I learned to use an economy of words to get a lot said in a short space. A skill, I will never unlearn...and if the reviews for The Eye of Ebon can be believed, came out rather strong. I love my writing voice, and I am very happy with it. I would never have gained it if not for my years writing that shorts.

I think MS is actually poorly designed as a way to focus on stories. and would benefit from more short stories going up for critique, and more challenges to write them, both in contest form, and in improvement fore publication form. MS does not have great tools for this, and if they want them, I am free to give suggestions as to how that might look. But, I think it would take a real coder to make it happen. I am not sure if they have those.

But...I would advise any of those who have written novels and only novels to find a place where they are challenged to write more outside of the box they know. It will create a body of work, maybe win a home, and give you a lifelong skill that improve and create tools to be used in both shorter and longer works.

 

[pmmg]

I followed that link PP, and for an instant I thought I opened a portal to another place that did not look at all friendly to me But, I have never enjoyed Facebook. But I do thank you for posting it up. Its good to look outside the bubble. And...I saw a long awaiting message from an old friend. That was cool.

I've always thought (and been criticised for saying) that the best way to learn how to write fiction is through writing short stories. That's partly because I found it much easier to develop my own writing style by doing so, and partly because it made it easier and quicker for me to see what worked and what didn't. I also found it easier to learn how to develop story and character arcs, because in a short story these are much more apparent - if they don't exist you have a vignette or scene, not a story. I also found (and find) short stories easier to write because they rely more on economy of words which suits my dyslexia.

My first stories were all short stories, written on scraps of paper whilst I was serving on peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in various parts of the world. It was only later that I started writing novels, and then only after I'd managed to type my short stories into my PC. I like to think that the skills I developed with those first few short stories were what made my first novel good enough to be picked up for publication. I've since had my short stories published too, as well as the subsequent novels. I still write both short stories and novels.

With all that written, short stories are not easy. They require real writing discipline in terms of story and character arcs, dialogue and background details, because you as the author only have a limited number of words to get it all across. That doesn't mean you can't have interesting world building or character types, but what you can't do is go on at length about them. It's all about hinting and suggesting, learning how to convey these things in only a few words.

There is one thing novels and short stories have in common: you only have the first 250-300 words to draw the reader in...

I did not start out with shorts, but I mostly agree with this

 

[JBCrowson]

I wonder if worldbuilding figures into this. A great many of us have invented, or hope to invent, some new sort of world and populate it with new sorts of characters. That might be more difficult to do with a short story, maybe?

I have written a few short stories set in the world I created for my novel series. Those stories helped me figure out backstory for characters, past historical events of significance and helped balance some of the ideas around the cost of v available powers from, using magic. But I aspire to be a novelist rather than a short story writer.

 

[ThinkerX]

I have written a few short stories set in the world I created for my novel series. Those stories helped me figure out backstory for characters, past historical events of significance and helped balance some of the ideas around the cost of v available powers from, using magic. But I aspire to be a novelist rather than a short story writer.

I did much the same

 

[pmmg]

But I aspire to be a novelist rather than a short story writer.

I feel that, in part, this answer is easier to give because the indi markets have been opened up, and would have been much harder to arrive at if traditional publishing was still the narrow gate so many wanted to enter. revi

But with the ease of brushing aside the traditional publishing route, exists also the brushing aside of the long road of honing one's skills against grist of reviewers and beta readers that would have us sharpen our skills. Many of which would have occurred in a short story format.

All of us aspire to be novel writers, but the role and proving ground that short stories can offer should not be overlooked.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I have written a few shorts and enjoyed them. I've mainly found that I just don't have time to both write shorts and novels, so I tend to stick to novels.

I think the two main reasons people go with novels are that
- it's what they read and know most
- the market for shorts is very small

People tend to stick to the familiar, which is why lot of people just go for novels by default. And the short story market has been shrinking, making it harder to find a home for them. Though I guess it might have changed a bit with the rise of the internet and what have you. People tend to read novels most, not shorts.

Though there probably is room for selling shorts. If I would go down that route, I would mainly focus on some kind of patreon like following to pay for things instead of selling single short stories.

I personally think that the best thing (if you want to write novels) to start with is novellas. 25k-40k words is reasonably manageable, even if you don't have a lot of time. But unlike short stories, it has all the elements of a novel in it, except shorter. You need to draw out a character arc over several chapters, have some kind of plot development, there's a rythm to it, and you need some set-up and pay-off. Shorts (going with under 10k words), tend to be more condensed.

So a novella is like a novel but shorter, making it easier to improve and see what you did wrong. While a short is a different beast, though of course with a lot of similarities with novels. But they aren't just like a chapter from a novel.

 

[Gurkhal]

Despite my attempt at getting a novel together I'm still in short story territory. The reason for this is that you can finish a short story much faster and that gives you a success in your writing to boost your confidence moving forward. Taking on a novel is massive thing especially if you're new to writing longer pieces.

As someone very successful and way smarter than me once said, and here I'm paraphrasing since I don't recall the exact words of the quote: "Writing is like rock climbing. You may want to start small and try it out with some smaller rocks and cliffs before you take on the peaks of the Himalayas."

 

[Oldgnome]

I like short stories. The 'fuel' of a short story is in a situation, whereas I think the fuel of a novel is in the characters. Also I have found that I read short stories more carefully. I try to notice more things. One of my old writing tutors told me the short story is a harder form than the novel and it tests a writer more. A novelist can postpone some new facet or idea until later but with the short story there is nowhere else for the new information to go. I have written one novel (though I didn't realise it was one until after the finish) and I have written a few short stories. I am not a prolific writer and so I cannot say that I have a great deal of experience in either form. However I think the short story leaves the reader with something potent, like a poem does, something that seems to linger in the mind. I find that reading a novel means I learn the novelist's voice and temperament instead. When I read 'Wuthering Heights' I felt I had also read some part of the nature of Emily Bronte. With short stories it is the situation that remains long after. There is a short story titled Bartleby The Scrivener by Herman Melville, which is a case in point. This might all be my style of reading, because I read in a very painstaking way because I have a poor memory. Short stories and novels seem to head off in very different directions. I understand collections of short stories don't sell well at the moment, but then neither my short stories nor my novel are selling, so I can't comment on trends much.