JBCrowson
Troubadour
A Hand Maid's Tale (the book rather than the show) - a dystopia that was intended as a warning some view it as a manual.
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Dystopian fantasy?
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Finchbearer
Istar
The Handmaid’s Tale, Margaret Atwood famously said that all of it is based on completely true events, she based some of the concept on real life events in Afghanistan. So if it is seen as a manual, then that is the ignorance of those who see it that way.
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- #43
Finchbearer
Istar
Honestly I have a bad habit of enjoying my villains and wanting them to not be villains.
This seems to be a problem I have too.
This seems to be a problem I have too.
Prince of Spires
Auror
I've talked with a few people who grew up under communism (specifically in Estonia), and it's worth noting that the older generations, those who lived most of their adult lives under communism, still believe much of the indoctrination they received while growing up. The promises the state made about everyone being equal and the state taking care of all aspects of your life. That sort of thing. Younger generations don't have that anymore. But what you're taught in your formative years is very powerful.
I mean, we've had societies where watching people cut each other up in an arena was considered prime entertainment, and where public executions by having people be eaten by wild animals was a good form of punishment. Or where science was abused to describe parts of the human race as inferior which meant you could enslave them without feeling guilty. Rather you were doing them a favor. Or where parts of the society were deemed inferior and could be sent to concentration camps.
The list goes on and on. One thing these usually have in common is that it is very much an us vs. them kind of thing. Which is very cult like. You great an "us" group, where people belong to. They are the right kind of people, and they get all the privileges. And then you have a them group. That can be either everyone not part of your group (which works for smaller groups), or a specific group. They're the cause of everything going wrong in society, they're less than you, they can be treated how you like.
Now, this group can be race related, or it can be convicts, or just born in a different caste. As long as you can come up with a difference, then you're good to go.
You might be underestimating the human capacity for cruelty, and for justifying ones actions as good and just.
I mean, we've had societies where watching people cut each other up in an arena was considered prime entertainment, and where public executions by having people be eaten by wild animals was a good form of punishment. Or where science was abused to describe parts of the human race as inferior which meant you could enslave them without feeling guilty. Rather you were doing them a favor. Or where parts of the society were deemed inferior and could be sent to concentration camps.
The list goes on and on. One thing these usually have in common is that it is very much an us vs. them kind of thing. Which is very cult like. You great an "us" group, where people belong to. They are the right kind of people, and they get all the privileges. And then you have a them group. That can be either everyone not part of your group (which works for smaller groups), or a specific group. They're the cause of everything going wrong in society, they're less than you, they can be treated how you like.
Now, this group can be race related, or it can be convicts, or just born in a different caste. As long as you can come up with a difference, then you're good to go.
The Dark One
Auror
My last novel is a dystopia but set in the real world.
Not fantasy, but very much speculative fiction...
It's the lowest rated of my novels on Goodreads, yet I regard it as my masterpiece.
All refugees welcome in Australia!
In 2023, Australia reversed its closed border policy and said to the world: ‘Welcome! You are free to come to Australia, but you must spend the first seven years in the Temporary Citizenship Zone around the Ord River.’
Seven years later, Ord City is a teeming Asian metropolis with 2.5 million people preparing for the First Wave – the first tranche of refugees gaining full citizenship – on Australia Day 2030. But mainstream Australia is passionately divided over Ord City, not least because of the risk of letting in terrorists, and dark political forces are bubbling to the surface.
Agent Conan Tooley is sent up to Ord City to look into a routine gangland murder, but finds himself frustrated and confused by the questions that arise at every step.
As the days to the First Wave count down, Conan encounters any number of people throwing up obstacles, including The Army of God (a Christian charity active in Ord City); a carload of young people travelling to Ord City for the Illumination Festival the night before the First Wave; and Asif, a deep cell terrorist with a deadly mission. There is also the Shadow Group – mysterious figures who seem to be pulling strings at high levels to achieve some hidden purpose.
As the various subplots wind towards the explosive conclusion, the motives and values of all are profoundly challenged.
Welcome to Ord City is a satirical crime thriller set against the backdrop of Australia’s refugee policy and the malleable populism that characterises the Lucky Country in the C21.
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- #46
Finchbearer
Istar
Interesting, I’ll take a look.My last novel is a dystopia but set in the real world.
Not fantasy, but very much speculative fiction...
It's the lowest rated of my novels on Goodreads, yet I regard it as my masterpiece.
All refugees welcome in Australia!
In 2023, Australia reversed its closed border policy and said to the world: ‘Welcome! You are free to come to Australia, but you must spend the first seven years in the Temporary Citizenship Zone around the Ord River.’
Seven years later, Ord City is a teeming Asian metropolis with 2.5 million people preparing for the First Wave – the first tranche of refugees gaining full citizenship – on Australia Day 2030. But mainstream Australia is passionately divided over Ord City, not least because of the risk of letting in terrorists, and dark political forces are bubbling to the surface.
Agent Conan Tooley is sent up to Ord City to look into a routine gangland murder, but finds himself frustrated and confused by the questions that arise at every step.
As the days to the First Wave count down, Conan encounters any number of people throwing up obstacles, including The Army of God (a Christian charity active in Ord City); a carload of young people travelling to Ord City for the Illumination Festival the night before the First Wave; and Asif, a deep cell terrorist with a deadly mission. There is also the Shadow Group – mysterious figures who seem to be pulling strings at high levels to achieve some hidden purpose.
As the various subplots wind towards the explosive conclusion, the motives and values of all are profoundly challenged.
Welcome to Ord City is a satirical crime thriller set against the backdrop of Australia’s refugee policy and the malleable populism that characterises the Lucky Country in the C21.
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- #47
Finchbearer
Istar
My grandmother was born in 1930, Austria, and so grew up with fascism. I don’t know what her beliefs were or what she was told as a child, but she went onto marry a British man and moved away from Austria in the end. I’ve also known quite a few Eastern European folk and I assume many folk lament the loss of the Soviet Union. Going from relying on the state for everything, to then that all collapsing must have been unsurmountable for some of them.
CupofJoe
Myth Weaver
I worked with an academic that grew up in East Germany in the 70s and 80s. When I knew the in the 2010, they still wouldn't eat chicken because, to them, it was the poverty meat of Soviet Block.
Going back a couple of generation, and when I was a kid I grew up with some Baltic State exiles who had to flee when the Soviet Army started winning. They had no concept of what the Nazis had done as being wrong.
There is that [probably apocryphal] quote "Give me a child till he is seven years old, and I will show you the man"
The Dark One
Auror
If you're a member of Voracious Readers its currently free.
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- #50
Finchbearer
Istar
Oh I downloaded a sample on kindle, if it hooks me in I’ll buy it.
Miles Lacey
Archmage
Having read extensively about cults and various dictatorships I found that, with the exception of most military dictatorships, most dictatorships have the same basic elements as a cult including:
1. A cult of personality built around their founder and his successors. Everything they say is treated as if it was handed down from God and treated accordingly.
2. A sycophantic elite surrounding the leaders who live lavish lives (compared to most people) and are largely exempt from many of the restrictions imposed upon others.
3. A network of informants to ensure that people are too scared to say or do anything that doesn't conform to what the leaders want. Note that many informants are either being blackmailed, using it to get rid of people they dislike or doing it to divert attention away from themselves.
4. The breakdown of trust to the point that everyone is seen as a potential informant so people avoid talking to anyone about certain taboo subjects and avoid all contact with people who are non-conformist in any way.
5. A willingness to accept extreme acts - even against children - to ensure loyalty to the leaders and conformity in that environment, as long as it is directed against people they dislike or envy.
6. Absolute control of information. It's very easy to radicalise people when any source of information other than that approved by the leadership is either banned, all but impossible to access for most people or distorted to ridiculous extremes.
7. An obsession with sexual and moral puritanism, right down to the clothing that people wear. Unless the regime or cult is recruiting support. Compare the comparatively revealing outfits worn by female participants in the Nuremburg rallies and other events promoted by the Nazis as opposed to what they normally wore from day to day.
So if you are going to write about a dystopic society based on elements of a cult just read some history books about various despotic dictatorships.
1. A cult of personality built around their founder and his successors. Everything they say is treated as if it was handed down from God and treated accordingly.
2. A sycophantic elite surrounding the leaders who live lavish lives (compared to most people) and are largely exempt from many of the restrictions imposed upon others.
3. A network of informants to ensure that people are too scared to say or do anything that doesn't conform to what the leaders want. Note that many informants are either being blackmailed, using it to get rid of people they dislike or doing it to divert attention away from themselves.
4. The breakdown of trust to the point that everyone is seen as a potential informant so people avoid talking to anyone about certain taboo subjects and avoid all contact with people who are non-conformist in any way.
5. A willingness to accept extreme acts - even against children - to ensure loyalty to the leaders and conformity in that environment, as long as it is directed against people they dislike or envy.
6. Absolute control of information. It's very easy to radicalise people when any source of information other than that approved by the leadership is either banned, all but impossible to access for most people or distorted to ridiculous extremes.
7. An obsession with sexual and moral puritanism, right down to the clothing that people wear. Unless the regime or cult is recruiting support. Compare the comparatively revealing outfits worn by female participants in the Nuremburg rallies and other events promoted by the Nazis as opposed to what they normally wore from day to day.
So if you are going to write about a dystopic society based on elements of a cult just read some history books about various despotic dictatorships.
The Dark One
Auror
Military dictatorships can develop some of those cult traits.
Miles Lacey
Archmage
Military dictatorships can have some of these characteristics but they almost never have all of these cult traits.
The lack of a cult of personality is a key distinction between most military dictatorships and other types of dictatorships. Instead, they replace the cult of personality with a cult of militarism in which the military are hailed as the ones who keep order, make the streets safe and destroy the enemies of the state.
However, military dictatorships can, and do, cross over from being military dictatorships to being despotic dictatorships (despotic being the usual term to describe dictatorships with personality cults).
A nice summary. From my naive perspective, I would add to this useful list an ideology that is used to motivate the followers of the despotic leader. Admittedly, not all despotic leaders have their own unique ideology, but many do, and it is a powerful tool that helps maintain what might otherwise be an unsustainable dictatorship.
Dictators are dull. What's fascinating are the cultures that allow the dictatorship to happen and persist or, more accurately, the fascination lies in daily life within those cultures. How people survive under oppression, the countless acts of courage and cowardice, the dreadful decisions, the prices paid.
Miles Lacey
Archmage
Having studied many of the dictators I find them fascinating but the regimes they created are even more interesting because no two dictatorships were exactly the same. How people survived them, the decisions they made, why they made them, the dreadful Catch-22 situations they found themselves in and why so many people supported these dictatorships is also fascinating to say the least.
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- #57
Finchbearer
Istar
All fascinating stuff. How megalomania works.
The Nazi Seizure of Power is a brilliant and unforgettable book. It's a look at a single, small town. No demagogues, no dictators (except in the far background), just ordinary folk going off the rails.
Prince of Spires
Auror
One book that is on my TBR list (if only because of the brilliant title) is Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook, Revised Edition by Edward Luttwak. I have read his book on the Byzantine Empire, which was great, so I think this one will be a good read as well. It might offer some insights in this topic (though as said, I haven't read it yet...).
One thing I always wonder about in discussions about dictators is where one draws the line between a dictator and a king (or queen). Dictators tend to have a bad name, but we don't really have the same feeling about the kings and queens of history. What's the difference between them?
One thing I always wonder about in discussions about dictators is where one draws the line between a dictator and a king (or queen). Dictators tend to have a bad name, but we don't really have the same feeling about the kings and queens of history. What's the difference between them?
The Dark One
Auror
Where do I start?
The main answer is benevolence, but there is also the idea of acceptance; ie people growing up in a traditional monarchic regime expect to be ruled and hope for benevolence. There is also the dilution of political power that comes with constitutional monarchy.
You might also consider that dictator is an imprecise term, usually applied by someone else. No-one aspires to be a dictator.
History has shown that both dictator and monarchs can be removed if they get it wrong.
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