Romance

[TheKillerBs]

@ Killer Bs: It's not so much love at first sight as lust at first sight. Physical attraction is the foundation of any budding romance. That's not shallow, it's biology. This is just one component though. A good romance has a lot going on at once between the heroes and inside themselves. It'll be complicated and beautiful at the same time.

Oh, I know. I was saying that more for DotA's sake. I understand full well the importance of intense physical attraction at the beginning of the romance (sub-)plot. But he was saying that he didn't like that so I pointed out another option. Although I don't really get his objections... I've never heard of a relationship starting between two people who don't find each other physically attractive in some way.

 

[Chessie]

The OP's readers aren't romance readers either. They're fantasy readers, I assume. True, i don't read romance, but many of the books i read have romance subplots (which I DO enjoy) and perhaps readers who don't read within the romance genre want different things from a romance subplot than a romance reader would want from a romance story? I mean, if I am not a complete and total outlier...?

I am fully aware that his readers are fantasy readers, not romance. But he was specifically asking for help with a romance subplot. I posted the basics of romance plots in general. My understanding of writing novels is that when you weave subplots into the main plots, the subplots should be fully developed plots as well, which is why I posted the basics of what a romance story line looks like.

Not sure what or why you're disagreeing with me, maybe it's because you think that love at first sight and sticky love is stupid or what I'm saying is harmful somehow. That's fine. My advice was meant for another user asking a question, which I answered to the best of my ability. If you think that you have something else or deeper to offer him, go right ahead. You're saying that the romance subplots you read are different than what I listed and I find that hard to believe. Romance is structured in a certain way just like mystery, or horror, or fantasy adventure. I'm trying to help out a fellow writer with knowledge I've learned over the years.

Furthermore, I don't really like the tone of your posts to me. They seem like...idk...maybe I'm stupid or something because you disagree with me? I've been writing for a very long time and educate myself constantly when it comes to story structure. I don't appreciate being treated as if I don't know what I'm talking about and with that, the discussion between you and I is over. I'm not answering anymore of your posts. Ever.

 

[SaltyDog]

A romance novel encompasses one aspect of life (romance) while a fantasy novel has much more going on, like saving the world, etc. A fantasy audience is going to want something different than a romance audience.

Or at least I (fantasy audience) do...

I agree with you there DotA, sure romance is okay as a subplot, but I'm more focused on the saving world part.

 

[SaltyDog]

And I think y'all two need to take a break from this thread, personally. Or each other at least.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I am fully aware that his readers are fantasy readers, not romance. But he was specifically asking for help with a romance subplot. I posted the basics of romance plots in general. My understanding of writing novels is that when you weave subplots into the main plots, the subplots should be fully developed plots as well, which is why I posted the basics of what a romance story line looks like.

Not sure what or why you're disagreeing with me, maybe it's because you think that love at first sight and sticky love is stupid or what I'm saying is harmful somehow. That's fine. My advice was meant for another user asking a question, which I answered to the best of my ability. If you think that you have something else or deeper to offer him, go right ahead. You're saying that the romance subplots you read are different than what I listed and I find that hard to believe. Romance is structured in a certain way just like mystery, or horror, or fantasy adventure. I'm trying to help out a fellow writer with knowledge I've learned over the years.

Furthermore, I don't really like the tone of your posts to me. They seem like...idk...maybe I'm stupid or something because you disagree with me? I've been writing for a very long time and educate myself constantly when it comes to story structure. I don't appreciate being treated as if I don't know what I'm talking about and with that, the discussion between you and I is over. I'm not answering anymore of your posts. Ever.

I'm not trying to denigrate you, and I don't think you're stupid or don't know what you're talking about. I definitely didn't intend to imply that. My disagreement with something you said does not mean that I have anything personally against you. I know tone can be misinterpreted in the written word, and there definitely has been a misinterpretation of some sort. I try to treat everyone and their opinions with respect, even when they disagree with me. I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational, but the fact that i disagree with you in of itself is not rude or disrespectful, even though you have more expertise on the subject than I do. My opinion and perspective is valid like anyone else's. And it's not wrong for me to want something different out of a story than some other people do.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

And I think y'all two need to take a break from this thread, personally. Or each other at least.

I wasn't intending to start an argument...

 

[Peat]

See, normally I use love and romance interchangeably. But Chesterama's posts have reminded me that in fiction, they're not the same thing necessarily because romance relates to a genre and a set of rules. When people hear the word romance, a lot of them expect a certain thing.

So... I'm a sucker for a good love story. But romances give me the heebie-jeebies.

I'd also add that while I'm a great believer in ignoring people screaming "But I hate that cliche", people complaining about reading a non-romance genre book and discovering a big old romance in the middle is something I see a lot of. So I say to Brian that if you want to follow Chesterama's expert advice, be sure to signal loud and clear what you're doing to your audience at the start. Personally I'd never go for anything marmite in a book if its not integral but hey, you do you.

And, while I can't say for sure without seeing the thing, I don't see an issue with the only pay-off of a love story being "Okay, I'm in love, I'll be giving this relationship thing a go". That works for me.

 

[SaltyDog]

I wasn't intending to start an argument...

I understand, but when one is imminent, best to stop, and let it cool of then to start a post war. I mean you both have your opinions, great, now it's up to Brian Scott Allen to take them into accord.

 

[skip.knox]

It is not usually helpful to say, or even to infer, that one is an expert on X and therefore other people need to sit down and listen. That is an ad hominem attack done from reverse angle, but it still is beyond the guidelines for the forums.

This thread may have gone astray over that single word, romance. I believe, though I invite Brian to clarify, that when he said "romance" what he meant was simply a romantic sub-plot and did not mean to invoke the literary genre, Romance. Chesterama, here again I invite the author to clarify, took it as the latter and proceeded to give a perfectly good description of the basic tropes of that genre. Others took that as prescriptive, and naturally asserted that there were other ways of approaching a love story.

People were, in other words, speaking in different tongues.

For myself, I'd still like to hear BAS address my first set of questions. Why not have the kiss (since that's the culmination) happen in the middle of the book? Or earlier? Or, I suppose, three-quarters.

I ask this because it would help clarify the relationship of the love story (notice I did not say romance!) to the main plot. For example, does the main character need the declaration of love (however meant) in order to achieve something in the main plot? If so, where does that happen? Then that starts to dictate the pace at which the love story develops. OTOH, if the main plot can proceed without regard to the progress of the love story, then I begin to wonder if the love story is not indeed tacked on.

But, BAS, I think I hear your pain. I, too, have a love story sub-plot, and it bedevils me. The timing of the physical relationship, from first glance to intercourse, seems to expand and contract almost arbitrarily. I struggle to connect the several points of progression in the love story to the several points of the main plot. Like you, I know where I want it to wind up, but the getting there seems to encompass a myriad of criss-crossing paths. So, alas, I don't have clear answers for you. Only annoying questions.

 

[Chessie]

It is not usually helpful to say, or even to infer, that one is an expert on X and therefore other people need to sit down and listen. That is an ad hominem attack done from reverse angle, but it still is beyond the guidelines for the forums.

I'm not an expert, but only mentioned that I have experience with romance subplots. That's the truth and I'm not sure how there's anything wrong in having said that? I also stated at the beginning of my first post that there's a difference between love and romance. Assuming Brian meant a romance subplot, I simply shared what I know of the genre. I was only trying to help but sometimes I truly feel that my suggestions/comments are so easily dismissed on this site over and over again. And at the risk of sounding all emo...it makes me not want to share.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I hate having enemies. I try not to be a horrible person, but misunderstandings and such happen. Can we all accept that there are different ways of looking at things and we can *all* learn from one another's perspectives? Clearer communication could have prevented this whole fiasco, probably.

Discussion and disagreement, especially the ability to discuss and disagree peacefully, is part of what makes these forums so helpful to writers. We can build on one another's ideas, compare and contrast, modify or repurpose techniques and ideas for our own use. Everyone's perspective is worth something. And if we can examine and add onto other's ideas instead of shutting ourselves up in our own ideas, everyone will benefit. These forums are so very far above the mud-slinging and profanity found in other areas of the Internet and I don't want to contribute to their decline.

I disagree with people a lot, and people often interpret it as an attack. I honestly had no idea that any of my comments could have been misinterpreted as condescending or confrontational. I'm not attacking you as a person if I disagree with you. I'm simply presenting my own perspective, which only goes so far, but it is my perspective.

Chill pills for everyone?

Oh, and sorry for derailing your thread, Brian...I doubt any of that helped you resolve your dilemma.

 

[Peat]

But, BAS, I think I hear your pain. I, too, have a love story sub-plot, and it bedevils me. The timing of the physical relationship, from first glance to intercourse, seems to expand and contract almost arbitrarily. I struggle to connect the several points of progression in the love story to the several points of the main plot. Like you, I know where I want it to wind up, but the getting there seems to encompass a myriad of criss-crossing paths. So, alas, I don't have clear answers for you. Only annoying questions.

I once saw someone say the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot. A little simple but its a decent place to start in my experience. For me, that usually means before a big bit of action, or after. The subplot serves as a palate cleanser.

Maybe look at your plot and mark where you need the palate cleansers? Once you know how often it'll come up, pacing it could be easier.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Let me first say I have been monitoring the thread but I haven't been able to post due to various time constraints this evening. This thread has been informative and has helped me to understand the complexities of love and romance plots. So, thank you all for participating and I would love for people to continue participating. Now, I am going to address Skip first and then ask Chesterama a question.

For myself, I'd still like to hear BAS address my first set of questions. Why not have the kiss (since that's the culmination) happen in the middle of the book? Or earlier? Or, I suppose, three-quarters.

Now, the kiss simply cannot happen in the middle of the book or earlier for a few very important reasons. The most prominent in my mind is that Jude and her don't meet initially until chapter 4 and don't have regular interactions until chapter 8 or so. That right there is about 1/4 of the book until it starts making sense for them to build a relation. The second most prominent in my mind is Jude's reluctance. This reluctance is tied to his disease. Now, this is disease can only be communicable through blood contact. This is why he doesn't want to get into a relationship, he knows just how easy it is for that to spread. One mistake and she has several problems including the potential to go into a hulk like rage and kill everything around her until she is put down. That also means her progression in several branches of magical arts, including her specialty of contacting the dead and otherworldly creatures, would be stopped and she would backslide to the point where she couldn't perform certain spells that came as easily to her as breathing. Another problem is social standing, she would be like the MC (Jude) and be on the lowest rung of the social structure. All of that creates a conflict in Jude, he has the natural human imperative to be in a relationship. He found someone that he wants to be in a relationship with. But at the same time he doesn't want to spread this disease at all. He doesn't want Steph to get it. He doesn't want to have kids so that they don't get it. That's why it can't happen earlier, Jude is being an idiot. A logical idiot but an idiot nonetheless.

I ask this because it would help clarify the relationship of the love story (notice I did not say romance!) to the main plot. For example, does the main character need the declaration of love (however meant) in order to achieve something in the main plot? If so, where does that happen? Then that starts to dictate the pace at which the love story develops. OTOH, if the main plot can proceed without regard to the progress of the love story, then I begin to wonder if the love story is not indeed tacked on.

On to this point. All of what I wrote above leads to a very central characteristic of Jude, a deep need, stemming from his childhood, to belong. There is one member of his family that likes him and that is fairly recent. He has never really belonged. His family does not have the disease. So he lives away from others like him. However, his family hates him. He doesn't feel like he belongs. He has some camraderie and common interests but he is an outsider. He certainly cannot fit in with the non-diseased crowd unless he hids the fact he is diseased. The first place that gives him a sense of belonging is a terrorist organization. People respect him for him and for what he does and can do. He isn't looked down upon. He knows these people personally. He forged his own relationships there and he feels like he belongs.

His love interest (Steph) however presents a second choice for finding a sense of belonging. It may be just with her but he will still belong somewhere. But, as it so happens, he cannot be with her and be a part of the terrorist organization. This question of whether Jude will chose her or them will come to a head right at the end. Instead of belonging with terrorists, who are also diseased, he will choose to belong with her.

Now, as for the question. Chesterama what is the difference between a Romance plot and a love story plot?

ETA: I forgot to mention that he hasn't told her that he is diseased. So far as she knows he is normal. This adds another problem for the relationship. He feels obligated to tell her if the relationship progresses, but he fears that if he does he will lose her. He does tell her, eventually, and she will get mad at him for not telling her sooner, but that just helps the bond grow stronger.

 

[Penpilot]

From what I've heard, in broad strokes, I think the way you have the romance play out can work. Pay-off can mean a lot of things, but for me essentially, as long as I'm not getting the feeling that things are being dragged out unnecessarily, I'm fine with it.

If the pace of the relationship unfolding feels natural, based on circumstance, then I think you'll be fine.

Full disclosure here, this is similar pacing to the way I have my romantic subplot play out in one of my novels. The two characters meet under less than optimal circumstance. They interact. There's obvious chemistry, but neither is even considering the other as a potential romantic partner.

As the story unfolds, their paths become more and more intertwined, but there's no concrete acknowledgement that there's an attraction between the two, because neither of them consciously knows it's there. Now, it's obvious when you read the story from the way they interact but there's nothing ever said aloud.

The closest thing to it is one of them asks the other if they want to grab something to eat after they helped them out with something. But the other person doesn't hear them because they're busy doing something, and then the unfolding of their lives ends that opportunity for anything to really spark.

At the climax of the story, the MC has to make a choice that involves the romantic interest, and it helps to resolve their personal plot arc. But again, there's not concrete acknowledgement of their attraction until the last scene. They end up holding hands, and there's an obvious but indirect acknowledgement that there's something between them.

Again, as long as plot doesn't feel dragged out, and you're giving the reader something, even if it's just a nugget, I think you'll be fine.

 

[Miskatonic]

I use it for character development, a source of conflict, etc. It doesn't become the focal point though, as I'm not writing stories geared towards the romance genre.

 

[cydare]

One thing that tends to bother me about a lot of love stories is the 'only you' element, shown in a deeply passionate light. By that I mean that the characters have no other meaningful, positive relationships - or at least not ones that can come close to their bond with their significant other. This is often treated as a how things should be.

Firstly, I personally feel that platonic bonds with friends or family can be just as important as romantic ones. Secondly, if a character only has their romantic partner, they will lack a diverse support system that can help them tend to different emotional needs. It'll also put a lot of pressure on their partner and the relationship in general, since it's the only one they put so much energy in. They also may have a harder time establishing the right ways to show affection and enact boundaries. It's something that should be taken into account.

This is especially true in your case since it seems Steph is the only person standing between your main character and terrorism. That's a lot to put on someone's shoulders. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for your book - it can create conflict and push the story forward. I'm just mentioning it because I see a lot of situations like this glazed over.

Have you considered that Steph might not be just be an alternative all by herself, but a symbol? He sees she accepts and cares for him, and that's very important, but it also signifies that there may be other ways to gain other people's acceptance that aren't terrorists.

I think, giving your main characters other motivations for choosing this life would be good too. Not just, "if I'm with the terrorist group, Steph won't have me". Is the strong need to belong a character flaw? It seems that it may be, if taken to the point that he would choose this group if the girl he loved was okay with it.

Another suggestion - remember the characters are individuals. Give them conflict past the main troubles (disease and social standing). It doesn't have to be big arguments or anything like that - just things they disagree on because they're human, and different from one another. No one is perfect, and couples don't operate with a hive mind.

As to your original question - I like slow build. It makes it feel more natural to me.
Make sure that when you build up the romance it's not just physical shows of affection (hand holding etc) but emotional connections.

 

[FifthView]

On to this point. All of what I wrote above leads to a very central characteristic of Jude, a deep need, stemming from his childhood, to belong. There is one member of his family that likes him and that is fairly recent. He has never really belonged. His family does not have the disease. So he lives away from others like him. However, his family hates him. He doesn't feel like he belongs. He has some camraderie and common interests but he is an outsider. He certainly cannot fit in with the non-diseased crowd unless he hids the fact he is diseased. The first place that gives him a sense of belonging is a terrorist organization. People respect him for him and for what he does and can do. He isn't looked down upon. He knows these people personally. He forged his own relationships there and he feels like he belongs.

His love interest (Steph) however presents a second choice for finding a sense of belonging. It may be just with her but he will still belong somewhere. But, as it so happens, he cannot be with her and be a part of the terrorist organization. This question of whether Jude will chose her or them will come to a head right at the end. Instead of belonging with terrorists, who are also diseased, he will choose to belong with her.

The reason I mentioned relationship to plot in my first comment was because your opening post seemed to imply that you have the option of solidifying the relationship earlier rather than later, but my tendency is to view that pivot as a BIG DEAL, affecting everything that comes after in some way. If it didn't have much effect on the story, could be either/or, then...I wondered if maybe the relationship had been tagged on to the story merely to show something about your MC.

But you've clarified the importance of the relationship.

I think that the slow boil is probably precisely what you need. As I see it, the story is something of a character story (MICE quotient) and the ultimate conflict is within your MC. This is how you've described it. So he has two choices that are incompatible. I think it's a good idea to focus more on the one earlier in the book, then begin turning the focus more toward the option of an "out", than to try focusing strongly on both from an earlier point.

I do agree, strongly, with Penpilot: I do not like romance/love/relationship subplots when I'm "getting the feeling that things are being dragged out unnecessarily." So how you write it would make a huge difference for me. That said—and I hate to even mention this, because in non-romance stories I really hate this—YA does seem to have a lot of the ridiculous angsty do I or don't I, she loves me she loves me not sort of development, with betrayals and misunderstandings aplenty.

If it were my tale to tell, then based on what you've written so far I'd establish very early that the answer to "Relationship?" is "No." I.e., leave the reader feeling that there will be no romantic relationship formed between these two, or at least that that's not going to be what this story is about. Because it's not really about that romantic relationship, is it? It's about your MC's personal growth, his discovery of options for his life. This is a thin line, perhaps, but I think it's important to know the difference. But you can make the later acknowledgement of feelings and the MC's ultimate choice stronger if you've first explored those other aspects of his life and made the terrorist connection strong, a corner into which he's painted himself. That said, you also can't just simply spring her forward as some sort of deus ex machina at the end of the story. So I'd probably focus on building a friendship between them earlier, without much focus on the possibility of a romantic relationship—although, with subtle foreshadowing of something more.

 

[glutton]

Now, as for the question. Chesterama what is the difference between a Romance plot and a love story plot?

Chesterama is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong but as I understood it she interpreted a 'romance subplot' as a subplot meant to invoke the specific literary genre known as romance, whereas a love subplot could be about characters falling in love in any ways that don't necessarily follow the rather specific conventions of the 'romance' genre.

 

[glutton]

I'm not an expert, but only mentioned that I have experience with romance subplots. That's the truth and I'm not sure how there's anything wrong in having said that? I also stated at the beginning of my first post that there's a difference between love and romance. Assuming Brian meant a romance subplot, I simply shared what I know of the genre. I was only trying to help but sometimes I truly feel that my suggestions/comments are so easily dismissed on this site over and over again. And at the risk of sounding all emo...it makes me not want to share.

It would likely help to remember that not all people are equally aware of or in tune with genre-specific (or otherwise fairly specific) terminology ie. there is a dictionary or layman's definition of 'romance' that will come to mind for many before that of the romance 'genre'. A lot of people who say 'romance' subplot will just mean 'love' or 'romantic' subplot, the way you went off at DOTA made it seem like you felt he/she was *wrong* for not interpreting 'romance' as referring to the genre (as he/she clearly didn't, and Brian probably didn't mean if he is asking the difference between love and 'romance').

It's similar to how 'epic fantasy' refers among the genre-savvy to a specific subgenre that tends to involve a large cast, intricate world building, a wide scope, and long books (farmboys, prophecies, and dark lords common but optional)... but if somebody writes 'I have an epic fantasy novel about this ultra badass girl who wields a giant hammer and beats up Godzilla sized monsters with it' it would probably be appropriate not to jump to the conclusion the novel belongs to the 'epic fantasy' subgenre, but the author might just mean they've written a fantasy novel with the descriptor of 'epic' (because the heroine is... epic!)

 

[skip.knox]

>the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot.

Which begs the question of how one knows the main plot needs a break. I mean, I could argue that if the plot needs a break, it's the plot that needs fixing, not that it needs a subplot. IMO, the subplot must contribute to the main plot. So it comes in when it is needed in order to *advance* the main plot.

Then again, I'm still working on my first novel, so whadoiknow?