Romance

[FifthView]

>the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot.

Which begs the question of how one knows the main plot needs a break. I mean, I could argue that if the plot needs a break, it's the plot that needs fixing, not that it needs a subplot. IMO, the subplot must contribute to the main plot. So it comes in when it is needed in order to *advance* the main plot.

Then again, I'm still working on my first novel, so whadoiknow?

I wonder, would you say there's a difference between a "subplot" and what are commonly called "side quests?"

 

[skip.knox]

Thanks, Brian. Clear answer. So clear, in fact, I doubt I can be much help. I do have a love story sub-plot, but at this point I don't know if it works because I have not had outside readers, except for the early stages. But here's how I handle it.

Inglena is a barbarian princess exiled because she can do magic, which her people revile. Marcus is First Tribune in a Roman Legion. He's in his early 40s, she's in her early 20s. The reader probably figures Inglena will connect with Julian, who is young and handsome and the Legion's commander, but he's also snarky and arrogant, and she's put off by that. Also because he simply assumes she'll like him. But having lived in exile, what really appeals to her is stability and strength, and these attributes Marcus has. So, by degrees, she is attracted to him. Also, she's quite fed up with all the advances from the young bravos among her own people, who regard her as a prize to be won.

As for Marcus, he thinks she's too pretty and too young, and he has a hard time overcoming his Roman prejudice against barbarians. But when she shows interest, and even more when she shows faith in him, he's vulnerable and his walls fall away. By story's end, Marcus retires from the Legion (after having saved the Empire, of course!) and goes with Inglena, who for her part has united the exiled magicians with the main tribes, and they go west together into Hispania. Marcus is sort of her prince consort.

I get from A to B by degrees, as I said. I try to use crisis points for this. They meet after a battle with goblins. There's a nice idyll when they are both outside their camps (Romans and barbarians camp separately) just checking on things. It is night, and Marcus tries to explain Roman constellations to her. Later he shows good sense as well as bravery in the first pitched battle with goblins, which she admires. In a later chapter, Inglena has to make a hard decision. Julian and others "advise" her, which means essentially telling her what she should do. But Marcus just listens. That's a key advance because it's the first intimacy.

I have a gap right now after that. Somehow I have to get to kissing and more serious physical contact, and I'm not sure of the context for that. By the time they get to the culminating battle scenes, which is a siege that lasts for days, they are lovers and comfort each other at the end of the day. Sometimes that's sex, but sometimes it's just being kind.

Anyway, the key is that events sort of drive the relationship. It's not at all unusual for war to bring people together who otherwise might not find each other. So I'm really doing the opposite of what I have said in other posts. The relationship doesn't drive the plot; the plot drives the relationship. I sometimes think I'll drop the thing entirely. Sometimes I think the love story should be Inglena and Julian (that's the way it started). But I like Marcus, and so far his relationship with Inglena is rather sweet, so I'm keeping it in until my beta readers tell me it just doesn't work.

 

[Peat]

>the best way to pace subplots is to stick them in when you need a break from the main plot.

Which begs the question of how one knows the main plot needs a break. I mean, I could argue that if the plot needs a break, it's the plot that needs fixing, not that it needs a subplot. IMO, the subplot must contribute to the main plot. So it comes in when it is needed in order to *advance* the main plot.

Then again, I'm still working on my first novel, so whadoiknow?

Aye, there's the rub all right.

I'd disagree with the idea that if the plot needs a break, then it needs fixing rather than subplot. Its probably true sometimes but I don't think it always is.

Lets say you have a giant fight. Your characters are sent to the hospital. They can't pursue the main plot immediately, because they're in hospital. You can have a time passes section - or you can rewrite it so they're not in the hospital (but if you always do that it may weaken reader investment) - or you have them talk over a subplot while in hospital. I think that's a case where the plot is fine but having a subplot to fill the natural time lapse in the plot is good.

An even stronger case is when something dramatic has happened in the plot and you want to stretch out the suspense before telling the reader the outcome. You see writers do that a lot by switching PoV (but then, aren't PoVs a sort of subplot in themselves?) but having the character deal with subplot can work just as well.

Or maybe its the evening before a major battle, everyone's being sombre, but being sombre alone isn't that interesting - stick in some subplot!

Note that none of this precludes the subplot contributing to the main plot. The love expressed the evening before the battle could provide the hero with the motivation to survive. The laundry carried out for the Mafia boss could provide the patronage needed for the hero to survive revealing that it was the Banker wot done it. The chat about why the High Priest wants to interfere in the Quest when in hospital could provide an insight that later allows the Quest to continue. And so on.

You don't *have* to only put subplot in the narrative gaps. But I do think its a good starting place. If you look at it and its wrong, you can always move it again, but it gives you something to look at in the first place. And I think some of it will be in the right place if you do it this way.

Disclaimer: This post could be utterly wrong... but hey, its a starting place for us to figure out what's right

 

[skip.knox]

I should talk. I have several sub-plots in my WIP. Mostly these are not side-quests but are other participants. The story centers around a massive invasion of the Roman Empire, so I pick up other individuals from time to time. Each plays a role in the main story, but also adds resonance (I hope!) to the world.

The sub-plots come from rather inexcusable sources. I wanted to show an ordinary person reacting to the invasion and wound up with an eleven year old girl in the company of a Roman war dog. I needed to create a way for the goblins to cross the Danube River (they can't swim and cannot use boats) and wound up with a simpleton called Fist who becomes a hero in a bad cause (he's the one who ensures the goblins get into the Empire). I created a pal for Julian back in Constantinople who came and went from the story, but now is firmly a part of the final siege.

I keep telling myself to knock it off. Keep the spotlight on the star. But these other characters keep sneaking on stage and stealing scenes. Lack of discipline, I suppose.

 

[Peat]

If it is a lack, it is one you are in good company with. There's no shortage of top authors who've done the same thing. And sometimes those diversions end up stealing the story.

 

[Penpilot]

From my understanding, taking a break from the main plot is generally but not always necessary. Why? In some ways, it's like hearing the same tune being played over and over, soon or later you need a break from it, a change of pace. Too much of a good thing and all that jazz.

The change of pace allows one to come back to the original plot with renewed vigor. In addition, subplots are supposed to support the main plot. So having them allows you to give the reader a change of pace, and it allows you to support the main plot without actually advancing or adding to it directly.

For example. Let's say we have a standard boy meets girl story. Boy gets the girl then loses her after a big disagreement. Now instead of having him pine and whine for her until he figures a way to win her back, lets delve in to a subplot. Let's say the subplot is about the friendly old man living next door who lost his dog.

The boy helps the old man find his dog and along the way the old man tells him how stupid he was. He made one little mistake and it nearly cost him someone he loved, but because he never gave up, he now has a second chance.

Now armed with a little lesson learned the boy returns back to the main plot and goes off to make things right with the girl.

 

[FifthView]

From my understanding, taking a break from the main plot is generally but not always necessary. Why? In some ways, it's like hearing the same tune being played over and over, soon or later you need a break from it, a change of pace. Too much of a good thing and all that jazz.

The change of pace allows one to come back to the original plot with renewed vigor. In addition, subplots are supposed to support the main plot. So having them allows you to give the reader a change of pace, and it allows you to support the main plot without actually advancing or adding to it directly.

For example. Let's say we have a standard boy meets girl story. Boy gets the girl then loses her after a big disagreement. Now instead of having him pine and whine for her until he figures a way to win her back, lets delve in to a subplot. Let's say the subplot is about the friendly old man living next door who lost his dog.

The boy helps the old man find his dog and along the way the old man tells him how stupid he was. He made one little mistake and it nearly cost him someone he loved, but because he never gave up, he now has a second chance.

Now armed with a little lesson learned the boy returns back to the main plot and goes off to make things right with the girl.

I think subplots and side quests are different things and serve slightly different purposes, although both should be important to the story in some way and they can accomplish similar things.

I'm not sure the terms can be formalized easily (especially side quest), but I tend to think of them in this way:

A subplot runs in tandem with the main plot, parallel to it, sometimes intersecting it directly but always in support of the main plot (although it can have an antagonistic effect on the characters' pathway.) A subplot will begin sometime after the beginning and may end sometime before the main plot is resolved—or at the same time—but it typically lasts longer than a side quest. Its purpose is to add depth to the story: depth to the world, depth to a character, depth/complexity to the plot, and often all three of these.

A side quest is much shorter and typically involves some new hurdle to be overcome, a new temporary goal, and is more likely to be a stronger diversion from the main plot or at least make the plotline less of a straight line and more like a zigzag with curlicues. So for instance, our group of heroes is on a quest to defeat Mr. Evil Wizard and they stop at a tavern on the road to Mr. Evil Wizard's mansion in the hills and—all their gear is stolen in the middle of the night. So they hunt it down the next day. Side quest. Then they continue on their path to Mr. Evil Wizard. Side quests don't need to be random encounters, they can also be of the variety "We need to steal this magic sword from the home of Mr. Mayor before we set off on our quest to defeat Mr. Wizard, because we'll need it for any chance of success."

So the example of the boy learning that the old man has lost his dog and deciding to help the old man find it, and learning a lesson, sounds to me like a side quest rather than a subplot.

IF, however, that old man has been a recurring figure always butting into the boy's business, asking him what he's up to, and the boy hates interacting with nosey/helpful adults, then the subplot could be this developing relationship with the old man and/or the boy's maturing into someone who can interact with adults. Finding the dog would be one event (a side quest perhaps) in that subplot. This would be something developed over a longer span than a simple hunt for a lost dog.

At least, this is how I look at it.

Any time we focus on characters involved in some activity that is not directly related to the main plot...is like an interlude. But this can even describe a bit of relaxation and conversation around a campfire on the way to kill Mr. Evil Wizard.

 

[Penpilot]

At least, this is how I look at it.

A little clarification and some thoughts of my own. First, the example with the old man I gave would definitely be something that doesn't just pop up. It would have to run in parallel and twine with the main plot.

As for side quests vs subplots. Subplots are well... plots... with their own beginning, middle, and end, how ever abbreviated or subtle the may be. Side quests, which I hadn't really thought of as a thing until now, as you described sounds to me just a part of the try-fail cycle of the main plot.

As described, the side quest sounds like just another obstacle/setback to overcome on the way to the end, so to me it looks like just a part of the main plot.

 

[FifthView]

A little clarification and some thoughts of my own. First, the example with the old man I gave would definitely be something that doesn't just pop up. It would have to run in parallel and twine with the main plot.

As for side quests vs subplots. Subplots are well... plots... with their own beginning, middle, and end, how ever abbreviated or subtle the may be. Side quests, which I hadn't really thought of as a thing until now, as you described sounds to me just a part of the try-fail cycle of the main plot.

As described, the side quest sounds like just another obstacle/setback to overcome on the way to the end, so to me it looks like just a part of the main plot.

I hadn't thought much about side quests until I listened to this podcast from Writing Excuses: Writing Excuses 9.24: Side Quests | Writing Excuses

My own views may be slightly different than theirs, but if so not by much I think.

So a question. How are these substantially different:

• Breaking into the Mayor's house to steal a magic sword that will help advance the main plot (will be important later)
• Going on a quest to find a missing dog in order to gain The Lesson that will help advance the main plot

For me, Magic Sword and The Lesson are quite similar. These are things that need to be acquired in order to move forward in the main plot.

Side quests can be used in other ways, however. One is to reveal some new information to the characters and/or the readers. So take my previous example, a band of adventurers is robbed and must go on a side quest to retrieve their belongings before they can continue on their quest to kill the Evil Wizard. I think that merely introducing something random like that to fill up the pages or out of a desire to make the main quest seem full of roadblocks is not enough; it needs to be relevant to the story in some way. So let's say that while they are on their quest to retrieve their stolen belongings, they spot their guide speaking with one of the villain's henchmen and exchanging money. Uh oh. Something about the character of that guide is being revealed.

Another side quest in another novel might be the MC heading into town with a new acquaintance on a chore for the stable master and seeing that new acquaintance react with absolute rage and violence when some town kid is getting beat up by bullies. This will become important later in the story.

I think that this topic probably deserves a thread of its own, but I'll tie it back into the topic of this thread. The reason the distinction occurred to me was because of my original comment in this thread and some subsequent discussion. So, how is the romance/love story worked into the tale? As

• Main Plot (Romance genre)
• Subplot
• Side Quest

I'd originally written this:

I can add a personal note. I am almost always irritated by an unnecessary romance plugged into most types of story. What is or is not "necessary" will depend, of course, on the type of story and the purpose the romance serves.

I almost feel that yours might be a case of this: she & the romance are a character-building foil for your MC. The romance, its development or lack thereof for the majority of the book, how it turns out—these things don't affect the plot significantly? By affecting the plot I mean even tangentially by affecting what the MC does or does not do at any given point in the story.

But as Skip said, "insufficient data for meaningful answer."

With the discussion that followed about the Romance genre vs a love story subplot, I began to question what I meant by the above. I think (early days yet) that I was pointing my accusatory finger at romantic elements added as a side quest. The only reason the romance is plugged into a story is to show something about the MC's character—most likely something we already know or can learn without the need for a romantic side quest, like he's an insecure, babbling idiot around girls.*

I think that when we add elements to a story, or decide to reveal something, knowing whether to use a subplot or a side quest or to make those elements the main plot is important. (For example, for BSA, is the story about that relationship—main plot—or is the tale a character story, about the MC's life and development, and the romance is a subplot that adds depth/complexity to the characters and plot, as I wondered in a previous comment? Important question, I think.)

As a better-safe-than-sorry caveat, I'll add that there may not be anything wrong with a romantic side quest....but only I think that maybe I have an aversion to those, at least of a type of romantic side quest.

*Edit: Not that I thought presenting a babbling idiot was Brian's intention. The opening post did have me wondering if the romance was only going to be a tagged-on additional presentation of his troubled physical and mental state, something that a romance wouldn't be needed for. But he expanded and clarified his intentions later.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I haven't been keeping up with this discussion anymore, so I'm not totally sure what's going on, but I have something to add to the whole "romance as a subplot" thing.

I seem to think of subplots in a different way than other people here on MS. I've seen a lot of complicated talk of structure and intertwining them with the main plot and finding out how they support the story...

The way I see it, subplots take over during lulls in the main plot. They're undercurrents in scenes where the main plot is the main focus, but when the main plot is stalled the subplots take center stage. The main plot can't keep barreling along at full speed continuously throughout the story.

Romance/love storylines do function as subplots. But, they are also facets of the characters' development. I don't see them in the same problem-->goal fashion I see other subplots. I don't see my characters' relationships as having goals. I mean, sure, get the girl/guy...but instead of being just something the character pursues, I see it as something that affects them and changes them, if that makes any sense. It's a part of them.

 

[Russ]

Subplots are interesting things. My perspective is that unless their resolution has some material impact on the resolution of the main plot they are just at the level of extraneous diversions. I do tend to like my writing fairly lean however.

 

[Devor]

I'm sorry to see that we've had a little bit of drama here. @Chesterama, @DragonOfTheAerie, I do hope you could try to give each other a little bit more of the the benefit of the doubt.

I rather like Chesterama's points on running a strong Romance plot. But it's kind of like the Hero's Journey and some of the other story structure layouts people offer. The biggest thing that they offer is the framework for discussing and developing these plotlines, more than the strict formula. That's especially true for a novel where we have more room to develop the twists and turns of a story the way that we want to, or for a subplot which may need a resolution but might not need as many twists or layers.

@DragonOfTheAerie, I think you are taking the idea that two characters have to be attracted to each other right away far too much at face value. If you've read Harry Potter, Rowling has indicated and many fans have noticed that Ron and Hermione are clearly drawn to each other in the first book, even though neither of them realize it. Each of them just cares a little too much what the other one is doing. That basic level of attraction is chemical, and it's been my experience that this is pretty typical in real life as well. It doesn't have to be an obvious or even a conscious attraction, but I do think it should usually be there.