Accepting Some People Won't Like Your Writing

[BWFoster78]

I will disagree with this, Brian. This morning (my time) I wrote some comments in Novels & Stories about Raymond E Feist. He is most decidedly a professional fantasy author. Still there is a noticeable difference between his first twelve books and the rest. To me it was as if the fun had gone out of it for him. Perhaps I'm totally wrong, but I feel he stopped writing what he liked and began writing what paid the bills. Anyhow, for me it wasn't Feist anymore.
I believe that if you don't write with your heart, you lose quality. A novel is not a manual, it's a part of yourself.

In the beginning of a career, you seek to become the best you can. If you're lucky, you achieve a level of success. At some point, you come to a realization that, no matter what you write, people will buy it just because it has your name on it. The temptation is to then just put out random crap.

I understand the temptation and hope I never succumb to it. (though I hope I get to the point where it is, in fact, a realistic temptation )

That seems to be what you're describing, though. To me, that has nothing to do with heart and everything about becoming complacent. That is not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about using the market to determine your next option.

 

[BWFoster78]

The distinction doesn't make sense because what needs doing is dependent on the story you want to tell. I don't understand the seemingly irresistable urge to make your approach or subjective view an objective measure of what is professional or good, but that's all this is.

And I don't understand the seemingly irresistable urge to pull a statement completely out of context, but that's all this is.

In the context of the original post, I was trying to explain that, if you want to support yourself with your writing, it's probably advisable to give a lot of consideration to what is commercially viable. The statement that was pulled completely out of context was not meant to speak to what is "professional or good."

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I disagree.

a) People are succeeding at writing. Self publishing and the internet gives us easy access to production and getting our work into the marketplace.

b) The upside is huge. A single hit that is made into a movie is like winning the lottery. Even if you don't reach that level, a book a year and a solid fan base can trump any minimum wage job. Better, the money keeps coming in when you stop writing.

You'll notice I wrote "vast majority". Also, I was referring to money as a motivator.

That's an erroneous assumption on your part. I simply said that you should consider what the audience wants. Do you do that by copying what someone else has done or doing research on your own?

Can you give an example of this type of research? How are you determining what an audience wants if not by looking at what other authors have done successfully? If that is how you're doing it, you are following a trend.

 

[BWFoster78]

T.Allen,

Re that last part: surveys, readings blogs frequented by your target audience, etc. Just as with any other marketing, find out what they like and dislike, hot buttons, etc.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Does that mean if you had an idea that you were really excited about, maybe a new twist or something that has an original feel, you wouldn't write that story unless it was supported in surveys, blogs, and marketing research?

To me that seems like an over the top following of trends.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I think the original three authors are another perfect example of where this thread has gone.

Tolkein... was he intending to make money? Who was his target audience? When did he become really popular?

How about GRRM? I mean... that's a whole different kettle of worms, there. Who did he aim to please when he began... and who does he please now? How many current "readers" are simply watchers who fell in love with the concept?

What about Rowling? What were her original plans for Harry Potter and the gang? Did she stick with her guns or change her concepts to fit what an audience demanded?


I mean... there are really wonderful examples just in these three authors... whom everyone knows about. Tolkein, GRRM, and Rowling. Perfect examples for this discussion.

 

[Jabrosky]

I don't think I could ever write anything without passion. People who write any kind of crud just for the money are opportunistic hacks whom I respect very little. That said, there is still the problem of political correctness. I don't advocate that writers should sacrifice their visions just to please the PC crowd, but it can still be painful to have your reputation soiled by accusations of malice, oppression, or whatever. But that's a topic we've debated at length in other threads.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I don't think I could ever write anything without passion. People who write any kind of crud just for the money are opportunistic hacks whom I respect very little. That said, there is still the problem of political correctness. I don't advocate that writers should sacrifice their visions just to please the PC crowd, but it can still be painful to have your reputation soiled by accusations of malice, oppression, or whatever. But that's a topic we've debated at length in other threads.

I couldn't imagine reading anything written with political correctness in mind and thinking it was good.

What I've read from Brian's posts is that he is concerned with what people will like, while you seem concerned about what people won't like. The very idea of worrying what other people think (on either end of the spectrum) when you're writing, astounds me. In my opinion, that's exactly the opposite of writing with truth. Sooner or later you have to give up caring what your friends will think, or if that girl down the hall will think you're a creep, or if your mother will cry and think you depraved. It's not you, it's characters and a story, a story meant to entertain. Fact is, the most interesting bits of stories, and their characters, are often some of the worst aspects of the human condition.

Maybe it's just me, but I think the ability to write with full fledged honesty is a hallmark of a great writer. It's not the only one of course, but without the ability to write a tale, unconcerned with how people might view a character (or subject matter), would there be anything to read that really moves, stories that strike a deep chord within?

I don't think there would be...

Now, certainly there are plenty of good stories that can entertain, and only entertain. It's a valid goal to do just that and no more. Presently, I'd be happy with that, but once that goal is obtained, I think I'll want to have more impact than entertainment alone. I used to think entertaining was enough. I'm not certain that's true anymore. Time will tell.

And yes, you could probably play to a current market forever and sell books. I doubt however, you'd ever produce anything jaw-dropping or inspirational. I'd rather shoot for a visceral reaction to my stories, even if it's considered an outlier, than to just hope to be part of a crowd. And to be concerned about political correctness, well as much as I understand the thought process, I think it comes from a lack of maturity. I don't mean that as an insult at all. I used to be that way. Now, I'm writing for myself...not writing in the hopes another will approve. In the end, I think it's far stronger.

My advice: Write as if you're the only person who will ever read it. Then put it out there for everyone.

 

[Svrtnsse]

My advice: Write as if you're the only person who will ever read it. Then put it out there for everyone.

For content, yes. For technique, no.
I'm assuming, that as far as this discussion is concerned we're really only talking about content.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

For content, yes. For technique, no.
I'm assuming, that as far as this discussion is concerned we're really only talking about content.

Correct. I wasn't referring to elements of technique, structure, or anything else of the like....merely content.

 

[Feo Takahari]

What exactly does content mean? If a story has the same archetypes but a different structure, does it have the same content? How about if it has the same structure, but stars completely different archetypes?

I've said previously that you should give your readers what they want, but I'm not sure what exactly the word is for what they want. I guess you could say "setpieces," but that's not quite it. What I mean is, if you're writing an action adventure story, you might write epic battles, or you might write one-on-one duels, or you might write a character who just outruns and outthinks threats, but you're going to have some form of action. And if you're writing a romance, it may be between a sheltered youth and a mysterious outlander, or between a spoiled noble and a cocky thief, or even between two longtime friends who're put into a position to want something more, but you'll eventually have them kiss. You have to give your readers something to enjoy before you give them something to think about.

There's only one other thing I'd like to talk about, and that's political correctness. I'd take off the political--I just care about correctness. Like, a lot of porn writers absolutely despise Christians. If they write all their Christian characters as horrible people, I don't care, because Christians can be horrible, too. But if they derail the story to rant about how Christians are horrible people*, I get miffed, because I've known Christians who weren't horrible people.

On the flipside, I once read a comedy novel by a Christian author, largely devoted to mocking fundamentalist Christians. In the end, the atheist protagonists converted to Christianity for very flimsy reasons. Again, I was miffed, because that didn't make sense in the context of their previous development and felt like it only happened because the author wanted his characters to end the story thinking like he did. The author wasn't honest and accurate in his portrayal of how his characters might grow and change, and the story inevitably suffered for it.

*This is not the dumbest rant I've seen interrupt a porn story.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

(Replying to Phil's original post…)

Me? I want to do a bit of both. What I mean is this: I LOVE to experiment, and I consistently strive to end a chapter or short story in a way that I hope is unpredictable or not easily predictable.

As for caring what the audience thinks: I do. I can't satisfy everyone, but Phil, in your September daily prompt contest, I felt like I had a new character (Addison Lane) whose story needs to be told. I don't know if she would've been the MC of my next piece or not, but from your reactions, I saw that her words more or less hit the page as I hoped they would.

My point: I write the story I want to tell, and if people like it, the story's worth telling.



About research… call it laziness, but in the time it takes to do effective research, I can write several chapters. If boy wizards are the rave, I'm doomed to fail.

Bob "R.A." Salvatore's advice to me: "Shut up and write." I think I know where he stands on market research. Of his own success he said he simply told the right story at the right time.



As for JRRT, GRRM and JK Rowling…

JRRT - Well, what is there to say? Required reading for school,and I was glad of it.

GRRM - I watched the show, hated season 3 ending mid-book, so now I'm reading. If HBO stops making the show, I like to books better. I'm glad the show got me into the books! If Martin based his work on market research, his characters would probably live longer. If publishers held Martin to the same standards to which not-yet-proven authors are held, his characters would probably live longer.

JK Rowling - Boy wizards ain't my thing. So there you have it: not everyone likes the works of the most successful author ever. I prefer girl barbarians over boy wizards. What's the market for that? I don't know. I know what I like and don't like. If there's a formula to maximize book sales [boy wizard] + [clever puns] x [7 novels] but what I do well is more like [girl barbarian] + [ridiculous plot] x [as many short stories as I can write] - [uses of the f-word to make my wife happy], I'm better off writing about the girl barbarian. I simply can't write a boy wizard and enjoy it.

 

[Svrtnsse]

DISCLAIMER: I'm drunk and I haven't quite thought this through so take it with an enormous pinch of salt. I just like the simplicity of the definition.

What exactly does content mean? If a story has the same archetypes but a different structure, does it have the same content? How about if it has the same structure, but stars completely different archetypes?

Content is the part of the story that remains the same regardless of author or medium. Everything else is presentation (technique).

 

[Jabrosky]

I couldn't imagine reading anything written with political correctness in mind and thinking it was good.

What I've read from Brian's posts is that he is concerned with what people will like, while you seem concerned about what people won't like. The very idea of worrying what other people think (on either end of the spectrum) when you're writing, astounds me. In my opinion, that's exactly the opposite of writing with truth. Sooner or later you have to give up caring what your friends will think, or if that girl down the hall will think you're a creep, or if your mother will cry and think you depraved. It's not you, it's characters and a story, a story meant to entertain. Fact is, the most interesting bits of stories, and their characters, are often some of the worst aspects of the human condition.

Maybe it's just me, but I think the ability to write with full fledged honesty is a hallmark of a great writer. It's not the only one of course, but without the ability to write a tale, unconcerned with how people might view a character (or subject matter), would there be anything to read that really moves, stories that strike a deep chord within?

I don't think there would be...

Now, certainly there are plenty of good stories that can entertain, and only entertain. It's a valid goal to do just that and no more. Presently, I'd be happy with that, but once that goal is obtained, I think I'll want to have more impact than entertainment alone. I used to think entertaining was enough. I'm not certain that's true anymore. Time will tell.

And yes, you could probably play to a current market forever and sell books. I doubt however, you'd ever produce anything jaw-dropping or inspirational. I'd rather shoot for a visceral reaction to my stories, even if it's considered an outlier, than to just hope to be part of a crowd. And to be concerned about political correctness, well as much as I understand the thought process, I think it comes from a lack of maturity. I don't mean that as an insult at all. I used to be that way. Now, I'm writing for myself...not writing in the hopes another will approve. In the end, I think it's far stronger.

My advice: Write as if you're the only person who will ever read it. Then put it out there for everyone.

I want to agree with you here, and I know I've ranted way too much about political correctness on these forums, but it's a personal issue for me precisely because I don't want to alienate the people I care about. If I come across as sexist, I'll lose all my female friends. If I come across as racist, I'll lose all my African and Afro-Diasporan friends. Just recently I had to break ties with a militant Afro-American feminist who used to be one of my best friends ever, and it was a painful experience which continues to haunt me to this day. I don't want to be politically correct, but I have even less desire to offend those who come closest to providing support for me.

 

[Philip Overby]

I noticed I haven't really weighed in since I posted this initially and it's interesting there are so many views (as I expected) on this topic. While I don't think pleasing everyone should be the ultimate goal, you as a writer (and a person) have to decide on who you want to please. Will it be yourself? Will it be a publisher? Will it be family or friends you don't want to alienate? I'm not always of the belief that you have to "write for yourself" but if you don't, it shines through in the writing. I love writing, so much so that I've done writing I'm not proud of in order to make money at what I love doing. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'd say there are probably dozens if not hundreds of pro writers who make their living writing stuff they don't want to. Are they happy? Who knows? You'd have to ask them.

As writers, we have to live with each decision we make. Whether it be a comment on a forum, a blog post, a line in our stories, or a choice to write something we don't love, our brand is tied into that. If at any point you're not happy with the process, it's time to reevaluate yourself and see what it is that's preventing you from being successful (whether that means making money or just finishing something).

On that note, people who don't like your work aren't going to contribute to your success. They may give you bad reviews, discourage you, or whatever, but they're not the ones who are going to stick with you. So the sooner you accept that some people aren't going to like what you produce, the sooner you can carry on writing what you want and hoping for the best.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I don't think there's any content that feels off-limits to me as a writer. I do, however attempt to portray relatable characters, so that is a limitation I'm happy with sticking to. I like to push the boundaries but don't relish shocking and appalling a reader with my daring. To me... that's a risk that probably wouldn't pay off.

 

[BWFoster78]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Does that mean if you had an idea that you were really excited about, maybe a new twist or something that has an original feel, you wouldn't write that story unless it was supported in surveys, blogs, and marketing research?

To me that seems like an over the top following of trends.

I read a blog post one time by an author who really knew his target audience. He could literally picture a middle-aged lady in a supermarket, and, every decision he had to make in terms of story, he thought, "Will that lady like this content?"

Your argument seems to be that there is something wrong with that approach. You seem to feel that writing in this matter is somehow inferior to being "inspired."

I kinda feel like you're being elitist. An author has to produce inspired "art."

No. An author can produce whatever he wants. Why is that guy's satisfaction at producing something his target audience is going to enjoy somehow not as valid or good as you producing whatever you want?

As an author, I want to be read. If I had my choice of producing something that I loved but no one else in the world did or something that didn't excite me but that thousands of people liked, I'd choose the second option.

 

[Svrtnsse]

As an author, I want to be read. If I had my choice of producing something that I loved but no one else in the world did or something that didn't excite me but that thousands of people liked, I'd choose the second option.

I think it was something like this I was going for with the DJ analogy from earlier. It's no fun doing something for others if no one appreciates it.

I guess that while writing can be therapeutic and something you do for yourself. It's probably something you're doing because you enjoy it. Still, telling a story requires an audience or you're just dreaming.

If your main goal is to tell stories and entertain your readers, then I don't see anything wrong in writing that which you think your readers will enjoy - provided you too enjoy it. It's when you start writing stories you don't care for in order to sell books that I think you've crossed the line.

Maybe you could put it like this: "Some of us want to tell stories and some of us want to be storytellers."

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Your argument seems to be that there is something wrong with that approach. You seem to feel that writing in this matter is somehow inferior to being "inspired."

I kinda feel like you're being elitist. An author has to produce inspired "art."

I have to assume you didn't read this part of the thread:

Now, certainly there are plenty of good stories that can entertain, and only entertain. It's a valid goal to do just that and no more. Presently, I'd be happy with that, but once that goal is obtained, I think I'll want to have more impact than entertainment alone. I used to think entertaining was enough. I'm not certain that's true anymore. Time will tell.

And yes, you could probably play to a current market forever and sell books. I doubt however, you'd ever produce anything jaw-dropping or inspirational. I'd rather shoot for a visceral reaction to my stories, even if it's considered an outlier, than to just hope to be part of a crowd.

Just as you choose only to be read (the same spot I'm in presently), I now believe I'd want more after that's achieved. It's just a choice. One I hope to be in the position to make one day. There's nothing elitist about it, other than recognizing a difference between great writers & all the rest.

No. An author can produce whatever he wants. Why is that guy's satisfaction at producing something his target audience is going to enjoy somehow not as valid or good as you producing whatever you want? As an author, I want to be read. If I had my choice of producing something that I loved but no one else in the world did or something that didn't excite me but that thousands of people liked, I'd choose the second option.

Agreed.... As I clearly stated before, it's perfectly valid.

 

[Ankari]

Just as in anything, there are two approaches to writing. Yes, you can write for your target audience and try to make money. Or you can write what you love and know contentment.

But why is it assumed that the two approaches are opposing? What if, instead of imagining the middle-aged woman, I imagine a 34 year old man bored of the mainstream fantasy that followed the success of Harry Potter or Twilight?

Then I would be writing for the ideal audience, myself. I'm sure there are more like me, right?

Besides, we are writing fantasy. This is already a smaller market. If we wanted a wider audience range, we would write science fiction or romance.