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Accepting Some People Won't Like Your Writing

Second post for an opposite opinion: I think I understand what most of the folks in this thread are arguing against. Damon Lindelof has an article about how he might try to write a movie about John Henry, and how it would be adapted across various drafts of the script. He'd start it as a relatively low-key story, with John Henry and the inventor of the steam hammer as former friends driven apart by differing views, and over about three drafts, it would turn into a superhero movie, because that's what happens when executives make changes to try to appeal to a wider audience. I think that if you try to change the kind of story you're telling to appeal to a wider audience, you risk no longer having anything meaningful or interesting to say.
 

Bansidhe

Minstrel
The important thing to remember is that, like all writers of all levels everywhere, these same fantasy authors you mention have their strengths and weaknesses, just as you or I do. The very best thing you can do is write as yourself, and hone your craft. There is already a Tolkien, Martin, and Rowling in the world--just as there is only one you. The book world needs YOUR voice, not a poor simulation of existing author. Don't worry about what everyone else is doing--especially when you consider that it could take years to see your work in print. Even if you sold your book to a publisher today, it will still be 18-24 months before it hits the shelves, and the market can drastically change by then.

Also, opinions on books are entirely subjective. So you are better served to write good, well-crafted story in your own unique voice, and to strive to craft a better story the next time, and the after that, etc.
 
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Hi,

Just to add, I think the problem Feo mentions is one that's more endemic to trade published authors than to indies. Notsaying indies don't also bow to pressure, but the number of people I've read on various fora who've been trade pubbed and felt that their books needed wholesale change is astounding. I think that's the power relationship in action. The agent, editor and publisher all have their own ideas of what should be in a book to make it sell, and they wield a lout of clout. For the true indie if he sticks to his guns, he dictates what happens, and the editor (I assume) simply goes along with it or gets ignored.

Cheers, Greg.
 

JRFLynn

Sage
I may have been a bit caffeine-happy before, I do think writing well is crucial. Like Samurai with Bushido, writers should always be honing their skills. It bothers me, though, when editors want to gut a story (like The Last Stand) for the sake of making it "palatable" for the general public. Something strange and off the wall may often be overlooked because it scares publishers and what their perceived formula for success is. Yet, there are so many great books out there that are craaazay and famous for that very reason. Writing a well crafted story is the goal, but does it have to be aimed at pleasing the public or should an author's inspiration take precedence? Personally, I think inspiration comes first, the audience will find you...at least, that's my hope.

One thing that cannot be avoided, however, are bad reviews. I once read it's better not to look at them, for your own sanity's sake. As others have said, even the best books have haters. Twilight is a good example, though some would debate whether it's among the "best". Regardless, it caters to a wide and diverse audience. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but the author was certainly inspired and she's better off despite what anyone says. As writers/authors obviously we all crave success, and our motives for why we spin tales are just as diverse. For me, I want to share my story how I've envisioned it, for better or worse. LOL, I'll probably do a happy dance too every time someone likes it, but very few reader critiques actually have any worthwhile feedback that will help you improve as a writer. Only time and perseverance can do that.
 

Guy

Inkling
or do you strive to write in a way to reach the widest audience possible, perhaps sacrificing what you truly want to write?
"Truly" is the key word there. Some things are negotiable and on these I'm open to suggestion, but if the piece in question is something I truly want to say, no compromise. Never.
 
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A. E. Lowan

Forum Mom
Leadership
We accepted a long time ago that not everyone is going to like our books, but that's largely due to the fact that we tackle some very controversial subject matter. There are readers out there who will not like our characters for their sexualities or their views on marriage and family, or for how we question good and evil or deal with trauma and redemption. There are also readers who won't like that we write in 3rd person, or that we write dark urban fantasy romance, or the million other reasons readers don't pick up a book.

But I'm also going to come right out and say we're going to fight for the best audience we can get. We love writing, and we want to make a real professional go at it and do wonderful things like eat and pay the mortgage. We study the market and know who we are writing for even as we write the stories we are compelled to write, because it's how an entertainment business is run. We're rolling the dice, but we're not blowing bubbles into the wind. We know we're pushing the edge of the market, but we think it's an edge that's ready to be pushed. We're still telling the stories only we can tell, the stories our characters press us to write, but we're doing it with our eyes open, because we want to succeed.

So, no, of course there will be readers who won't like our work. But we're hoping that there will be enough who will.
 

Mythopoet

Auror
I went to see Tangled in theaters, accompanied by someone who'd been abused as a child. She immediately connected to the Mother Gothel plotline--for her, it was a great movie. I just sat through it without understanding--for me, it was a lukewarm movie. Should the goal really have been to make me dislike the movie?

I would never propose to state what the goal should be for any story teller other than myself. I realize that my wording was a bit absolute in that post, which was a mistake. Dean was talking about his viewpoint and I was talking about how that viewpoint helped me to develop my own view point. Dean is always careful to stress that every writer is different and I strongly believe that as well.
 

danr62

Sage
Let me throw out a marketing term into this discussion:

Target market.

Fantasy, as a genre, is very wide and diverse. It's one of the smaller genres, but even so it is split up into several sub-genres. If you love to write Urban Fantasy, then your target market is people who love UF. Actually, your target market is much more refined than that. There's romantic UF, dark UF, YA UF, comdedic UF (maybe), whatever. Your target market is those people most likely to read what you like to write.

Write for them, figure out how to write the best story you can for your target market. Don't worry about anyone else. There will be some crossover, but the best way to get crossover readers is to write something that your core audience will rave about and recommend to their friends who maybe like to read Epic Fantasy and have never tried a UF book.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
A few thoughts....

First, each of us needs to understand that, in terms of preference & taste, none of us is so entirely unique or original. That's a good thing. It means there are people in the world just like you, people who want to read the same types of stories and characters you do. Therefore, I say "write the story you'd want to read." There is undoubtedly an audience, comprised of readers similar to you.

Secondly, I talk a lot about writing with honesty & it applies here as well. Yes, it has a lot to do with keeping true to character actions & the avoidance of manipulating the natural behaviors of story elements...

...doom should not jam. The avalanche stopping in its tracks a few feet above the cowering village behaves not only unnaturally but unethically."
- Nabokov

Yet, maintaining honesty in writing also applies to vision. If you're pandering to a certain audience & not writing the story you'd wish to read, you're going to create a diluted, weakened product. If you're writing honestly, with a passion for the story you'd want to read, you're bound to create something that speaks on a visceral level to a certain audience. That is a powerful effect. Those are the readers that form a fan base, the rabid devourers of an artists work that may propel the artist to broader commercial success.

Like other elements of craft, I believe that writing with honesty is a learned behavior. It's hard to sustain honest writing for the span of an entire novel. In my opinion, it's part of an artist's maturity....the free expression of a truthful vision without regard to another wants and preferences. That, to me, is the basest power of art.

Make your art speak powerfully to others by remaining honest to your writing.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
When this topic first opened, I think I sided more with the thoughts that T.Allen expressed above. I've been thinking about it a lot lately, though, and I'm not sure that I haven't changed my mind to an extent.

As a beginning writer, you need all the help you can get just to finish . If you choose to write something for any reason other than that you're passionate about it, I think it decreases the chances you'll ever even complete it.

At some point, however, you get past the beginning stages. You stop having to force yourself to write every day. You finish what you start. (Note: this is all "presumably" for me, 'cause I'm certainly not there yet!)

At that point, what you write, if your goal is to be a successful writer in terms of money, should be influenced by what will sell more than by any other criteria. Perhaps that means going through all your ideas and only choosing to write the most commercially viable ones, or, perhaps, that means choosing to write what the audience wants even if you don't care for it all that much.

It seems to me that one difference between being a professional and being an amateur is that you do what needs doing instead of just what you want to do.

If you're pandering to a certain audience & not writing the story you'd wish to read, you're going to create a diluted, weakened product. If you're writing honestly, with a passion for the story you'd want to read, you're bound to create something that speaks on a visceral level to a certain audience.

I'm not sure I buy this. If you analyze a market and truly understand what that market wants, there's no mystery in figuring out how to produce what they want. If you're a good writer, you can write anything well if you work at it hard enough. Granted, if you're not professional enough to truly put in the required effort to do so, yes, you will turn out crap.

Make your art speak powerfully to others by remaining honest to your writing.

I'm am not an artist and have no desire to become one. I simply want to tell stories.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Of those three originally mentioned... I like Rowling the best. tolkein, for me... is the insomniac's answer. I can't get more than eight pages done before I'm awoken by the book falling onto my face. GRRM isn't someone i've read a lot, but mostly because I began his book only to discover finishing it would be quite a commitment to finish it. At the time, I wasn't interested in making that commitment, and unfortunately, I haven't picked it up again.

Is that to say I don't see value in the books I don't prefer? Absolutely not. I think I finished LOTR in a few months... but Goblet of Fire, I read pretty much straight through for three days.

Each author has their own style, and I think picking these particular examples was a very good comparison, Phil. Where I found the chapter with Tom Bombadil wholly uninteresting and forgettable (except for the lingering feelings of annoyance I wasted time reading it), I loved the deatils of the elf hats and stockings Hermione knitted...even though it didn't make it into the movies :(

Taste is one thing, but also one factor for me is time. I write fantasy, somewhere between epic and romantic, but what do I tend to read?

It depends. Mostly, I like books I can finish in a day. I grab a historical romance or a small paperback crime drama. I tend to read less fantasy because complex worls and trilogies take a larger commitment from me and I tend to read a few chapters and set the book down to cook dinner or pick kids up from school.. and then they sit for weeks gathering dust. I forget where I was, or what's going on, or don't remember how the world works, and I just get disinterested. Sad, but true. So, when I am sick or know I've got a lazy week ahead of me, I select one of the longer, more involved books on my shelf. For those times I'm just looking to kill an afternoon... I grab a 200-page easy book to keep it lighter.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
If you're a good writer, you can write anything well if you work at it hard enough. Granted, if you're not professional enough to truly put in the required effort to do so, yes, you will turn out crap.

Writing well & writing something powerfully engaging are not necessarily the same thing. Powerful writing leaves fans clamoring for the next installment. Good writing alone, does not.

There are many good writers in the world. How many of those can claim a rabid fan base, eagerly awaiting their next release & discussing characters and expectations on forums?

Not many....

I'm am not an artist and have no desire to become one. I simply want to tell stories.

The telling of stories is an art form. Some do it better than others.
 
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BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Writing well & writing something powerfully engaging are not necessarily the same thing. Powerful writing leaves fans clamoring for the next installment. Good writing alone, does not.

There are many good writers in the world. How many of those can claim a rabid fan base, eagerly awaiting their next release & discussing characters and expectations on forums?

Not many....

I'm not sure of your argument here.

I would assume that most writers choose subjects about which they are passionate, and few achieve the kind of fan base you're talking about. I don't think that anyone would claim that being passionate about your material is a guarantee for monetary success.

Good writing... Crap, even bad writing... that meets what an audience wants is likely to sell. If an author wants to make a living writing, I'm thinking that listening to the audience is probably a wise thing.

The telling of stories is an art form.

I don't see it as such.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
It seems to me that one difference between being a professional and being an amateur is that you do what needs doing instead of just what you want to do.

Yes and no.

I've done a lot of DJ:ing in my life. I was never famous for it and I didn't make money off of it, but I did it regularly for nearly ten years. When I started out my intent was to play the music I loved and help other people discover the greatness and wonder of underground electronic dance music.
That didn't work out at all. People weren't interested in getting to know the things I wanted to show them. They wanted to hear the chart hits and the classics and the things they recognised from when they were seventeen and life was wonderful. I resisted for a while and tried sticking to my guns, but an empty dancefloor is a boring dancefloor - no matter how good the music is.
I gave up and started playing what they wanted to hear. People started showing up and the dancefloor was no longer empty. People had a good time and I had a good time. Now and then I mixed in one of my own personal favourites; something hard and dark and obscure, just for kicks. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't.
Over the years, I got pretty good. I got a decent sense of the floor and I got a good feel of what would work and what wouldn't. I could tell when it was time to put on a monster hit (and which one) and when it was okay to go with a filler

in short: I'd gone from playing for myself to playing for the audience.

The next step from there, which I never took, would have been to try and profile myself. If I could pull in a crowd on a night because people knew that when I was DJ:ing it would be a good party that was a start. It's not the goal though. What I really wanted was for people to come dance to my music - not just get drunk and sing along to Summer of '69.

It's good when the crowd shouts and when they wave their hands in the air to the music you're playing, but it's even better when they're doing it to a track you love that you've picked out yourself and that you know they've never heard before. That's when I felt I really added something of my own to the mix.

There are some DJs out there who get to the stage where people come to hear them because they're interested in their music. These are the big names, the superstars, the ones that get to travel the world to play other people's music. Then there are those like me, who provide the soundtrack for a great party, but who really aren't more than glorified mixtapes.

I think a parallel can be drawn to writing. You can start out following your artistic vision, but if no one knows who you are no one's going to bother. You may find a small, enthusiastic, audience, but you won't go beyond that. However, if you hone your skills and adapt your stories you can make a name for yourself to a broader audience. People will recognise your name and will know you provide a decent read. You'll be a safe bet.
It's when you've reached that point you can go back to doing whatever you feel like. It's at that point you can have success following your artistic vision. That's when you can take the step up from being a decent solid writer to becoming a bestselling world-famous author.

So, yes, you're right about the difference between a professional and an amateur. But I think that the next step beyond being "just" a professional, requires you to strike out into unknown territory and explore different ideas.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I don't think that anyone would claim that being passionate about your material is a guarantee for monetary success.
I agree. However, those writers who achieve monetary success don't do so for money. They have stories to tell. They do so in a way that resonates.

If monetary success is a consideration, the vast majority of us would be better served picking up a second job at minimum wage. You'd earn far more scratch by the hour.

Good writing... Crap, even bad writing... that meets what an audience wants is likely to sell. If an author wants to make a living writing, I'm thinking that listening to the audience is probably a wise thing.
You're talking about writers that follow a trend. I'm talking about those setting the trends.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
So, yes, you're right about the difference between a professional and an amateur. But I think that the next step beyond being "just" a professional, requires you to strike out into unknown territory and explore different ideas.

I'd be quite happy to make it to the "just" a professional stage at this point...
 

Graylorne

Archmage
I'm not sure I buy this. If you analyze a market and truly understand what that market wants, there's no mystery in figuring out how to produce what they want. If you're a good writer, you can write anything well if you work at it hard enough. Granted, if you're not professional enough to truly put in the required effort to do so, yes, you will turn out crap.

I will disagree with this, Brian. This morning (my time) I wrote some comments in Novels & Stories about Raymond E Feist. He is most decidedly a professional fantasy author. Still there is a noticeable difference between his first twelve books and the rest. To me it was as if the fun had gone out of it for him. Perhaps I'm totally wrong, but I feel he stopped writing what he liked and began writing what paid the bills. Anyhow, for me it wasn't Feist anymore.
I believe that if you don't write with your heart, you lose quality. A novel is not a manual, it's a part of yourself.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
It seems to me that one difference between being a professional and being an amateur is that you do what needs doing instead of just what you want to do.

The distinction doesn't make sense because what needs doing is dependent on the story you want to tell. I don't understand the seemingly irresistable urge to make your approach or subjective view an objective measure of what is professional or good, but that's all this is.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
If monetary success is a consideration, the vast majority of us would be better served picking up a second job at minimum wage. You'd earn far more scratch by the hour.

I disagree.

a) People are succeeding at writing. Self publishing and the internet gives us easy access to production and getting our work into the marketplace.

b) The upside is huge. A single hit that is made into a movie is like winning the lottery. Even if you don't reach that level, a book a year and a solid fan base can trump any minimum wage job. Better, the money keeps coming in when you stop writing.

You're talking about writers that follow a trend. I'm talking about those setting the trends.

That's an erroneous assumption on your part. I simply said that you should consider what the audience wants. Do you do that by copying what someone else has done or doing research on your own?
 
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