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Writing Love

You might be thinking love story, which is not the same thing.

A love story with a happy ending is a romance, that's the proper definition, not me splitting hairs.

I'm not so sure about this, although I'm fascinated by the idea of a love story having a particular structure or expectations that are different from a romance story.

Personally, and not to screw down too deeply into my own subjective metrics....The word "romance" implies activity and endeavor. At least it carries this connotation for me. One romances another. A romance story, then, has this set of actions meant to accomplish an endeavor–building a particular kind of relationship when none existed before. A pas de deux [or trois, heh!] The action is all about achieving that happy state of union.

A love story can be about the love but without that same kind of effort and/or intention. For one, in some love stories the two people might begin the story already in love. In another type, the two parties might be falling in love naturally as the story progresses, not aiming for it, contemplating it much–i.e., not really romancing each other. And there can be other stories in which the surface plot is revealed to be incidental, maybe even in truth merely a subplot, as we come to understand that the story was really about love? I'm stretching here, trying to remember various impressions of different love stories I've encountered in the past. A love story about a long-time spouse descending into Alzheimer's would not necessary have a sad ending even if the situation is sad, but rather could be uplifting and reaffirming of that love in total effect. Hmmm.....
 
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Chessie

Guest
What I mean by love story is very fluid. It can be love for someone else, a thing, or love of Self. But every story has this in some capacity driving the character's actions.
 
What I mean by love story is very fluid. It can be love for someone else, a thing, or love of Self. But every story has this in some capacity driving the character's actions.

I doubt that we can say all stories are really love stories, however...heh.

I am interested in stories about love, or those that can be called a love story, as distinguished from every other story ever written and from romance stories.
 
In my latest story, the two characters start the story already in love with a young child to care for, but then I go back and tell how they met and how their relationship developed bit by bit.
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Interesting analysis. I'm not sure what the distinction is either... Chessie if you want to weigh in on how they are used that might be helpful?

I saw it in a similar way as you, FifthView... Romance is a specific genre with specific plot points and expectations. When I think of romance I think of Meg Ryan lol. (Oh god, I'm old).

But a love story could be as simple as a subplot and doesn't have to follow any specific pattern. Is that right Chessie?
 
Ah, my impression of the appearance of that rabbit hole was simply that you were talking about the way you write, i.e., you like to "pants" a story, discovering it as you progress, so setting out to write a romance is anathema because for all you know it'll be a different kind of story by the end of your discovery.

Nothing wrong with that.

Somehow the discussion moved away from "not wanting to know the ending" vis-à-vis pure discovery writing to an impression of your method as being "knowing the ending of a story is bad" and "the expected ending for romance stories is too predictable" –but I think this veered off course and wasn't at all your intended meaning? Perhaps by the time you have discovered the full ending of a story, and after revisions etc., the story would indeed fit within the normal expectations of a genre; you just don't like starting out with a predetermined ending when you begin writing.

I do believe that the genre romance has some strong expectations attached to it, but that would be a subset conversation in a conversation about including love in our stories. It's an important subset in my opinion, for anyone wanting to write a romance story, but that doesn't seem to apply to you (unless perhaps you give that genre a try for some future story.)

I only meant it in reference to my own writing and what I like to do...I didn't mean that everyone should do it my way or that another way is bad :/ Knowing your ending isn't bad, but I don't like it...so, I guess for me it's bad.

And I really would dislike writing romance. I just would. I can't motivate myself to read even one romance novel, as much as I want to read EVERYTHING. I like the ability to not know for sure how things end up. I like crossing genres and twisting them and breaking them. I guess it's too bad if I can't sell those stories, because I love to write them.

I would hate having to write within even one genre, probably. Some of my stories might turn out fitting nicely into one genre...but a lot end up a historical/horror/sci-fi/dystopian/steampunk/fantasy mashup. Like, I think everything I'm planning now combines at least three genres and subgenres.

Also, I would hate having to write knowing what the ending would be like, or even what kind of story I was writing...I do really like figuring out things as I go.

So, basically, genre annoys me and so does knowing what happens. Probably explains pretty well what I'm thinking and feeling, especially with the "It's a good thing I don't write romance" comment.

No insult is intended to people who do like romance. But I wouldn't be able to do it. There's no need to tell me how much freedom is afforded within the parameters because I'm aware. I don't like the parameters. I know that a lot more goes into an ending than who ends up with who. I don't like knowing who ends up with who.

In my current story I left the possibility open for a romance, but as the story progressed it became clear that wasn't right. Which is just as well, since then I killed the guy. (I didn't know whether he would live or die right up until when it happened, either.)
 
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Chessie

Guest
Interesting analysis. I'm not sure what the distinction is either... Chessie if you want to weigh in on how they are used that might be helpful?

I saw it in a similar way as you, FifthView... Romance is a specific genre with specific plot points and expectations. When I think of romance I think of Meg Ryan lol. (Oh god, I'm old).

But a love story could be as simple as a subplot and doesn't have to follow any specific pattern. Is that right Chessie?

Not sure what you're asking. Is it my comment about love vs romance or about all stories involving love somehow?
 
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Chessie

Guest
Also, I would hate having to write knowing what the ending would be like, or even what kind of story I was writing...I do really like figuring out things as I go.

So, basically, genre annoys me and so does knowing what happens.
If genre annoys you, then why do you read EVERYTHING? You *do* realize that you're basically reading the same stories over and over again, already coming into it with expectations as a reader:

-epic fantasy= the hero saves the world
-dystopian= the world is saved
-science fiction= the hero saves the world
-etc...
 
If genre annoys you, then why do you read EVERYTHING? You *do* realize that you're basically reading the same stories over and over again, already coming into it with expectations as a reader:

-epic fantasy= the hero saves the world
-dystopian= the world is saved
-science fiction= the hero saves the world
-etc...

I meant in my writing, but...I suppose in my reading it applies too.

And wouldn't that be why I read everything? Because I don't like reading the same kinds of things over and over again? I'm constantly wishing writers would branch out, both in their ideas and in their handling of them. Reading too much of the same is boring to me. I don't really expect anything of a book other than that the story is executed well. Confused at what you're getting at. Or why you feel the need to contradict me on what I say I enjoy/like/prefer. :/
 
I'm not contradicting the fact that genres have expectations attached to them, included in the definitions. Fantasy includes the fantastical, for instance. If it didn't it would be something that isn't fantasy That's true.

But I don't like being limited to one genre when I write. And sometimes genre feels limiting when I read (though this is a different kind of thing.) As in, "Why are all these books just the same story with the same tropes over and over? There are so many more possibilities. Where are those stories?"

^That said, my comment originally referred to my writing.
 
Interesting analysis. I'm not sure what the distinction is either... Chessie if you want to weigh in on how they are used that might be helpful?

I saw it in a similar way as you, FifthView... Romance is a specific genre with specific plot points and expectations. When I think of romance I think of Meg Ryan lol. (Oh god, I'm old).

But a love story could be as simple as a subplot and doesn't have to follow any specific pattern. Is that right Chessie?

Some genres are broader than others with respect to story elements and story types. If we say that fantasy is a genre, I think it's a very broad genre with respect to these things, whereas the romance genre is more restricted. On the other hand, a romance tale could be set in a sci-fi world, the wild west, or our modern world and have none of the fantasy elements that distinguish a fantasy–as well as in a fantasy.

I think the problem with thinking about love stories as opposed to romances is that they are defined according to different types of element. Well, I don't know exactly how we'd describe a "love story" by any other factor than that it's about a love between two people, in which case a romance might be considered a subgenre of a love story; on the other hand, perhaps "love story" is no more a genre than "revenge tale" or "bereavement tale."
 

Heliotrope

Staff
Article Team
Yes, that's how I thought if it, in the same sort of sub genres as "revenge story" or "survival story"... so maybe it has more to do with the goal?
 
on the other hand, perhaps "love story" is no more a genre than "revenge tale" or "bereavement tale."

This is the way I tend to think about it, honestly. "Love Story" is, to me, no more than a subplot, or secondary arch, within a story. It could be ANY story, even if not every story. Romance is a genre, or at least a subgenre inside every genre (You've got Spec-Fic Romance, Supernatural Romance, etc...). And, obviously, every Romance contains the Love Story, but I do not consider every Love Story to be a Romance.
I utilize variants of the Love Story inside most of my fic, because I'm a hopeless romantic and love Love. But I don't write romance. I don't like the conventions of the Romance genre, and despise almost every Romance I've ever read. But I love the limitless abilities you get to play with the Love Story.
 
This is the way I tend to think about it, honestly. "Love Story" is, to me, no more than a subplot, or secondary arch, within a story. It could be ANY story, even if not every story. Romance is a genre, or at least a subgenre inside every genre (You've got Spec-Fic Romance, Supernatural Romance, etc...). And, obviously, every Romance contains the Love Story, but I do not consider every Love Story to be a Romance.
I utilize variants of the Love Story inside most of my fic, because I'm a hopeless romantic and love Love. But I don't write romance. I don't like the conventions of the Romance genre, and despise almost every Romance I've ever read. But I love the limitless abilities you get to play with the Love Story.

I don't think we should demote love stories to subplot status only, because some stories are best characterized as love stories first (or second, see below.)

Today I happened to overhear one of the songs from the soundtrack of Brokeback Mountain, and it reminded me of the movie. Its top-level genre is drama, but that's an extremely broad genre. I also think it's a love story, and the love story aspect is second only to the drama category. It's not a romance story—even though a romance is within it. It's really about a love impeded by insurmountable obstacles (interior and exterior obstacles.) It's about the love. I wouldn't call that a subplot.

Movies are often categorized a little differently than novels. IMDB and other sites call BB a romantic drama, but in literature "drama" typically refers back to plays/scripts, heh, and I don't think Brokeback Mountain would be characterized as a romance of the type being discussed here.

It would be possible to write such a tale in pretty much any setting, fantasy, sci-fi, contemporary, with other insurmountable obstacles impeding the normal development of the type of romance story we've been discussing.*

*Edit: Eh, Romeo and Juliet. Another example of a love story that's not a typical "romance story."
 
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oenanthe

Minstrel
It is AMAZING to me how many people are so eager to talk about how much they hate romance.

seriously. I'm astonished by the unthinking ease of your condemnation of the biggest and most profitable genre out there.

And I can't help but think about how the romance genre is a genre that is mostly written by women, and mostly read by women.
 
It is AMAZING to me how many people are so eager to talk about how much they hate romance.

seriously. I'm astonished by the unthinking ease of your condemnation of the biggest and most profitable genre out there.

And I can't help but think about how the romance genre is a genre that is mostly written by women, and mostly read by women.

Who was talking about hating romance?

I wouldn't want to write it and I can't seem to interest myself in reading it, but "hate" is completely the wrong word.
 
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