Writing Love

[Demesnedenoir]

Not all interest in a story has to do with not knowing the ending... otherwise, romance and mystery, at least these two powerhouse genres would not exist. Still and always one of my favorite examples for many things is Columbo... the fun and entertainment of Columbo is not whether he will get the killer (he will, and we know who it is!) it is how he's going to put it to the dumb ass who thinks they pulled off the perfect murder and the arrogant upper class mouse vs the working man's cat game that they play. It's a perfect formula and a helluva lot of fun.

In fact, in romance and mystery, solving the crime or the couple getting together aren't really the story. That is more or less a prop of the formula, the real story is how this "happy" ending is achieved against what is most often great odds against a bunch of barriers that can range from a super genius criminal to social status differences to personality conflict, etc. The ending really isn't whodunnit or throwing a bouqet, it's the final piece of the puzzle in the mystery, or the final barrier overcome for love in romance... and in many cases, there are subplots assisting in carrying the story, giving it momentum and additional interest, as well as serving as obstacles.

 

[Christopher Michael]

This is off topic a bit, but worth a brief discussion, I think. If you don't want to conform to a genre, that's fine. You can do cross genre, even spec fic, and be okay. The problem is, if you're writing a genre fic you are absolutely going to encounter conventions and tropes that the readers expect you to hit. If you DON'T hit them, you're going to lose readers, thus sales.
The fun thing, however, is the pure amount of flexibility you have between those plot beats.

 

[Chessie]

Nonono! I don't mean that at all

I just mean, I don't always want a happy ending, or even to know what kind of ending I'll have. I like to try new stuff with each story, and take it in whatever direction or whatever turn I feel like.

I'm sure there's a huge amount of variety within the romance genre...how else could it be so huge?

Not insulting. Really sorry if it came off that way :/

Knowing where and who the characters stick with at the end doesn't register into the end itself when you tally everything else going into that final scene:

-the character's emotional journey + achievement or not of story goal
-literally the entire book of scenes coming before the final point that are its building blocks
-details such as setting, character emotions, the aftermath of the final battle (internal and external), tying in theme, satisfying the reader, etc.
-and since we're talking about love in this thread, how the relationship between the hero and his/her love interest, best friend, family member, etc comes to a resolution from the buddy breakup scene that got them to this point.

And these are just a few (big) things to consider when bringing the book to an end. Knowing that someone ends up with so and so doesn't take any of the above into account. So, no, you still technically do not know the ending if all you have is "joe and mary end up happily ever after" or "Mrs. Butcher killed Joe in the basement with a cleaver". You still--do not--know anything not to mention making it believable to the reader. It really isn't easy, nor does it make writing endings any easier. I invite anyone who thinks it sounds easy to give it a try sometime.

 

[FifthView]

In fact, in romance and mystery, solving the crime or the couple getting together aren't really the story. That is more or less a prop of the formula, the real story is how this "happy" ending is achieved against what is most often great odds against a bunch of barriers that can range from a super genius criminal to social status differences to personality conflict, etc.

This morning, a metaphor occurred to me. It's a little like preparing to watch the Olympics pairs free skating competition. You know many of the same spins, jumps, throws, etc., are going to appear. They always do. But you don't know exactly how they will be used, and until the pair starts you don't know the music they'll be using or how they'll interpret it.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Knowing where and who the characters stick with at the end doesn't register into the end itself when you tally everything else going into that final scene:

-the character's emotional journey + achievement or not of story goal
-literally the entire book of scenes coming before the final point that are its building blocks
-details such as setting, character emotions, the aftermath of the final battle (internal and external), tying in theme, satisfying the reader, etc.
-and since we're talking about love in this thread, how the relationship between the hero and his/her love interest, best friend, family member, etc comes to a resolution from the buddy breakup scene that got them to this point.

And these are just a few (big) things to consider when bringing the book to an end. Knowing that someone ends up with so and so doesn't take any of the above into account. So, no, you still technically do not know the ending if all you have is "joe and mary end up happily ever after" or "Mrs. Butcher killed Joe in the basement with a cleaver". You still--do not--know anything not to mention making it believable to the reader. It really isn't easy, nor does it make writing endings any easier. I invite anyone who thinks it sounds easy to give it a try sometime.

That's quite true.

and of course It's not easy! :/ I'd never say it was easy. Endings are hard no matter how you plan them. Especially being emotionally satisfying. I faced that struggle just recently in ending my WIP...

The comment about romance not being a good fit for me was a really generalizing statement. But we're headed off topic.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

This morning, a metaphor occurred to me. It's a little like preparing to watch the Olympics pairs free skating competition. You know many of the same spins, jumps, throws, etc., are going to appear. They always do. But you don't know exactly how they will be used, and until the pair starts you don't know the music they'll be using or how they'll interpret it.

The stories you may write within even a well-established frame are infinite. (Without getting mathematical about it. Lol I suck at math.)

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Back on topic though, is it true that every story involves love in one way or another? The difference is in how it's expressed and explored, right?

It's a very primal and fundamental part of being human. And I do strongly believe that all stories are in some way, however roundabout or subtle, about being human.

Edit: or maybe this is another tangent...

 

[FifthView]

The stories you may write within even a well-established frame are infinite. (Without getting mathematical about it. Lol I suck at math.)

Ah, if you pay good money for a ticket to see Olympic-level pairs skating, but it's a first round hockey match, you might be irritated.

If you pay good money for a ticket and in the middle of the performance, a clown car drives onto the ice, 20 clowns climb out and start pelting the pair of figure skaters with cream pies–you'll either be very angry or laugh like crazy, heh.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

This is off topic a bit, but worth a brief discussion, I think. If you don't want to conform to a genre, that's fine. You can do cross genre, even spec fic, and be okay. The problem is, if you're writing a genre fic you are absolutely going to encounter conventions and tropes that the readers expect you to hit. If you DON'T hit them, you're going to lose readers, thus sales.
The fun thing, however, is the pure amount of flexibility you have between those plot beats.

Idk what I'm writing. I'd prefer to figure out how or if I can sell something within a certain framework after I've written it. That may change later in my life. But at this point I'm just exploring my ideas and what I like to write. Im 16, I have plenty of time to figure it all out.

 

[Heliotrope]

FifthView these figure skating analogies are awesome!

There was a post a while back about how people actually love spoilers, and I've come to believe this to be true. We all love our favorite books or our favorite movies and we read them over and over and over again, despite the fact that we know how it will end. We know what happens at the climax. We know what all the plot points are. Which goes to prove that there is something more to our favorite stories that keeps us coming back. It is not about the formula, which we have memorized. It is about the theme. The lesson. The growth by the end. We cling to that part and we come back so we are reminded again of why we love the story.

With readers and new books it is the same. They know they like Heist books because it follows a certain pattern. They know the con artists are going to get the money. That is part of the fun. It is how that plays out that is interesting. People that love romance know the two people are going to fall in love. That is not the point. They want to see how it happens.

 

[Chessie]

FifthView these figure skating analogies are awesome!

There was a post a while back about how people actually love spoilers, and I've come to believe this to be true. We all love our favorite books or our favorite movies and we read them over and over and over again, despite the fact that we know how it will end. We know what happens at the climax. We know what all the plot points are. Which goes to prove that there is something more to our favorite stories that keeps us coming back. It is not about the formula, which we have memorized. It is about the theme. The lesson. The growth by the end. We cling to that part and we come back so we are reminded again of why we love the story.

With readers and new books it is the same. They know they like Heist books because it follows a certain pattern. They know the con artists are going to get the money. That is part of the fun. It is how that plays out that is interesting. People that love romance know the two people are going to fall in love. That is not the point. They want to see how it happens.

I was just thinking about mysteries in particular. Agatha Christie is my favorite author. I've read pretty much her entire list. M.C. Beaton is my second favorite mystery author. She writes cozy mysteries, same as Christie did. I always know the sleuth (either Agatha or Poirot) is going to catch the killer at the end. I know the killer is usually someone who seems the least likely but has the most to gain from the murder. Still, I've read a crap ton of these books for a reason. I love figuring things out along with the sleuth, and there's also plenty of information off page that is kept from me throughout, and etc. This doesn't take away the enjoyment. In fact, I'd get super pissed if I picked up a book that said "mystery" and the sleuth died at the end because the author wanted to be artistic. Genre conventions exist for a reason: because it's what readers want. For everything else, there's always literary fiction.

 

[Heliotrope]

Exactly. Which is why it is important to know what "kind" of story you are writing, and what the reader is going to expect, because then you can set it up right from the very beginning with a fantastic hook.

So, as you know, when writing romance, the whole point is to get the two together at the end, so at the beginning it is important to make them as far apart as absolutely possible, as in, make them as much of an unlikely couple as possible so that right from the beginning the reader is hooked, wondering "How the heck are these two possibly going to get together?"

That's why they read the story. That's what they want to see. It's the same with any book. Make the crime as strange or mysterious as possible so the reader wonders how the heck the detective is going to figure it out. Make the heist as hard as possible so the reader wonders how the heck the con man is going to get away with it. Make the couple as unlikely as possible so the reader wonders how they could end up together.

Stories take planning and foresight.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

In a sense, part of the reason I worked in breaking bones to tell a character's fortune into Eve of Snows (book 1) is to forewarn the reader that things aren't going to go as expected, and that there are bigger badder things at play than initially presented... Plus, the uncertain way in which the info is presented raises questions while indirectly telling them the ending. It is also an important aspect of the world, so it was useful to have it presented early.

Never underestimate the entertainment value of giving away an "ending".

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

^I frequently hint about the identity of the dark force throughout my book, without making it too obvious [although it seems obvious to me in retrospect, but that might just be because I'm the author].
I recently realized that reincarnation gives a whole new dimension to relationships, and Book I and II quickly fit together into one book just by realizing that.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Exactly. Which is why it is important to know what "kind" of story you are writing, and what the reader is going to expect, because then you can set it up right from the very beginning with a fantastic hook.

So, as you know, when writing romance, the whole point is to get the two together at the end, so at the beginning it is important to make them as far apart as absolutely possible, as in, make them as much of an unlikely couple as possible so that right from the beginning the reader is hooked, wondering "How the heck are these two possibly going to get together?"

That's why they read the story. That's what they want to see. It's the same with any book. Make the crime as strange or mysterious as possible so the reader wonders how the heck the detective is going to figure it out. Make the heist as hard as possible so the reader wonders how the heck the con man is going to get away with it. Make the couple as unlikely as possible so the reader wonders how they could end up together.

Stories take planning and foresight.

Ok this has been a lot of discussion unrelated to the OP...maybe I should just stop saying stupid things...

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

In a sense, part of the reason I worked in breaking bones to tell a character's fortune into Eve of Snows (book 1) is to forewarn the reader that things aren't going to go as expected, and that there are bigger badder things at play than initially presented... Plus, the uncertain way in which the info is presented raises questions while indirectly telling them the ending. It is also an important aspect of the world, so it was useful to have it presented early.

Never underestimate the entertainment value of giving away an "ending".

That's foreshadowing, right? Not giving things away per se.

 

[Chessie]

Foreshadowing and promising an ending are two different things. Foreshadowing is the planting of a seed for something big later on. Promising an ending has more to do with genre conventions.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I digressed as my brain is wont to do, heh heh. It's a relative.

That's foreshadowing, right? Not giving things away per se.

 

[FifthView]

Ok this has been a lot of discussion unrelated to the OP...maybe I should just stop saying stupid things...

Ah, my impression of the appearance of that rabbit hole was simply that you were talking about the way you write, i.e., you like to "pants" a story, discovering it as you progress, so setting out to write a romance is anathema because for all you know it'll be a different kind of story by the end of your discovery.

Nothing wrong with that.

Somehow the discussion moved away from "not wanting to know the ending" vis-à-vis pure discovery writing to an impression of your method as being "knowing the ending of a story is bad" and "the expected ending for romance stories is too predictable" –but I think this veered off course and wasn't at all your intended meaning? Perhaps by the time you have discovered the full ending of a story, and after revisions etc., the story would indeed fit within the normal expectations of a genre; you just don't like starting out with a predetermined ending when you begin writing.

I do believe that the genre romance has some strong expectations attached to it, but that would be a subset conversation in a conversation about including love in our stories. It's an important subset in my opinion, for anyone wanting to write a romance story, but that doesn't seem to apply to you (unless perhaps you give that genre a try for some future story.)

 

[Chessie]

Ah, my impression of the appearance of that rabbit hole was simply that you were talking about the way you write, i.e., you like to "pants" a story, discovering it as you progress, so setting out to write a romance is anathema because for all you know it'll be a different kind of story by the end of your discovery.

Nothing wrong with that.

Somehow the discussion moved away from "not wanting to know the ending" vis-à-vis pure discovery writing to an impression of your method as being "knowing the ending of a story is bad" and "the expected ending for romance stories is too predictable" —but I think this veered off course and wasn't at all your intended meaning? Perhaps by the time you have discovered the full ending of a story, and after revisions etc., the story would indeed fit within the normal expectations of a genre; you just don't like starting out with a predetermined ending when you begin writing.

Perhaps it was the broadly stroked brush of "knowing how a story ends is bad" without knowing that's what was said, but we're all responsible for how we say things, especially when it comes to literary standards and the process other writers take to create their books. I don't care how anyone else does things because it doesn't directly affect me. What I do care about is when the assumption and myths are put out there that are harmful, like...knowing your ending is bad. I've already explained my take on this, exhaustively enough. We come here to talk about writing and learn from one another. That's hard to do when people's attempts to be helpful are disregarded in the name of "art".

Far as love stories go, I think the ending discussion is valid to this one because it depends on the type of love you're writing about, which is why it came up in the first place. It depends on genre and audience. All stories are basically love stories anyway.