Evaluating criticism

[skip.knox]

The encouragements posted by the staff at Nano is consistently earnest and well-meant, but I rarely find it useful. Today's post was. It comes from Dean Koontz. I skimmed most of the article, but at the end he lists three things to look for in criticism. Here is the first (we're not supposed to quote at length)

Worthwhile criticism will be highly specific; naysaying will be a broad kind of negativism.

He has two more, in somewhat the same vein. This rang true the moment I read it, especially the first part. Worthwhile criticism will be highly specific. I'm adding this to my personal guidelines for when I critique the work of others.

 

[FifthView]

The day you tell Dean Koontz he'll always be a mid-list writer...

 

[pmmg]

Well, not shooting down the advice, but, as one who has reviewed a lot, I must say the type of review does have a bit to do with an evaluation of the writing over all. I do attempt to tailor my reviews to things that I think will be most helpful for the one I am reviewing, and since I tend to review a lot of aspiring authors, many of them would benefit more from a review that points to more general things. Mr. Koontz may have already graduated past all of that, and so such comments would not be helpful to him, but for many they could be. If I was to review something that does not require a lot of heavy lifting, I would quite likely start hitting on the very specific things.

 

[Steerpike]

I suppose it depends on what Koontz means by "highly specific" versus "general negativity." If someone says "Yeah, this didn't hold my interest, you're just not a very good writer," that's general negativity that isn't helpful to anyone. On the other hand, if someone says "This didn't hold my interest because the pacing is slow, and you get bogged down long wordy sentences. Also, you have a tendency to tell a lot that that failed to engage me," that's also a fairly general criticism (in my view) but one that is at the same time helpful.

Does the latter count as "highly specific" to Koontz because it calls out specific writing criticisms?

 

[Heliotrope]

The day you tell Dean Koontz he'll always be a mid-list writer...

Lol, I seriously wish I could post a photo of my bookcase right now.... Every single Dean Koontz novel is there. My husband LOVES him. Seriously loves him. He has had some really great ones, Odd Thomas (the first one) was awesome. From the Corner of His Eye was also excellent... the rest... dare I say they are all the same?

At any rate, I do enjoy his writing style and his wit.

As far as the advice on criticism... I'm not sure because I haven't read the full piece... but Neil Gaiman had opposite advice. He said:

"Remember: when people tell you something's wrong or doesn't work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong."

I tend to agree more with Neil on this one. General "this isn't working" advice tends to be correct, in my experience. But as soon as a crit partner gets too far into specifics it becomes dangerously close to them trying to rewrite your story the way they would do it... which almost is never the way you imagined it.

 

[Steerpike]

But as soon as a crit partner gets too far into specifics it becomes dangerously close to them trying to rewrite your story the way they would do it... which almost is never the way you imagined it.

Yes.

 

[Russ]

Personally I prefer specific advise and specific suggestions on how to fix things. But that might arise from the context of the advice I get. Most of the time I get advice from people who make their living writing fiction and are very helpful and have specific tools on how to fix a problem that have worked for them for many years.

So it is a matter of context. But I think specific advise is great. For instance one writer said for a chapter he was kind enough to read for me that he didn't feel connected enough to the characters, and he thought that was because I was not using psychic distance appropriately. He was right, and it was way better advice than just "I don't feel connected to the characters" which would have left me pondering and struggling over the reason why. Or a suggestion to enhance pacing by shortening dialogue and chapters had value. Identify problem and suggest solution. That works particularly well with craft or technical issues.

Now when it comes to say character or plot, that is more complicated. Those things are more integral to your creative vision and what you are really trying to convey. Specific advice on those areas I think should be scrutinized more closely. But if someone has read a lot of one of your characters and thinks that they are acting out of character than that can be helpful. Or if they suggest a need for a plot twist or disappointment with some issue of plot that can he helpful too.

A good crit partner will try to understand your vision and help you achieve it, not impose their own. That is why good ones are so damned valuable. But if they can't get your vision from your work the problem is not always with them.

So when I think about what information you want from a helpful reader you might want to consider different approaches based on the subject of the comment (i.e. technical vs thematic etc) and your assessment of the critiquer.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

All advice might be useful, whether specific or general, or from an established writer to someone who barely reads. I often find I “fix” what people are talking about by getting to an underlying issue more than what is actually pointed out... unless of course it’s a technical issue... me and my commas. Damned commas.

My favorite crit is the specifically general... “You lost me on page 250, paragraph 3, no idea what the HELL you’re talking about.” Or, “This line hit my brain like a lead brick.” Or, “Your timeline might be off, can these characters be here and there?” My answer to the latter was “glad you noticed, you’ll figure it out.” LOL.

And the always popular marking a line with “WTF were you drinking when you wrote this line?”

 

[Chessie2]

Rant ahead:

My main complaint with critiquers is they often (in my experience) want to rewrite my story the way they would write it. I have found that throughout the years, I've grown increasingly frustrated with even the simplest task of sharing my writing just for sharing's sake and ended up getting told what was wrong, that I should rewrite this and rewrite that, etc. Unsolicited advice is my biggest peeve in real life and I often struggle with this in my writing life. ("Don't punish your kid like this, it'll teach him that...Don't force your kid to eat when he doesn't want to, he'll grow up to hate you...Don't bla bla bla...)

I don't expect everyone to like my writing. In fact, I expect most people to hate it. Probably because I don't connect with a lot of writing I read too. Critiques have stopped me cold in my writing. I had a brutal critiquer reduce me to tears in front of a group of fellow writers once. I've been talked down to about my writing on this very site (this was years ago and that poster doesn't even come here anymore). I've had nothing but bad experiences with so-called crit partners except for Svrt because he's kind and amazing. Now I just let the readers stick it to me.

I learn more from my reviews than crit partners. Because I've always written romance of some variety, I've had a hard time connecting with critique partners that also understand the genre. It has its sickeningly sweet rules for a reason. I write for the housewife. Most crit partners I've had write to a different audience. They don't understand the concept of instant chemistry, or HEA, or why the emotional roller coasters are a necessary part of the story. So I've given up on critiques forever.

Now I use one main reader. An editor and proofreader. I don't need or want my manuscripts workshopped by other writers who tell me I shouldn't use adverbs or write in a certain tense, to not use was, had, conjuctions, ellipses, whatever. It's my story and I'll write it in the tone and voice that would best connect with my readers and genre.

/end rant

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I think I stand firm with Helio's husband - I have nearly every Koontz book too. Love his writing. But I also agree the stories have a certain sameness to them - it's just a good sameness!

Having said that I disagree with the idea that good advice will be either specific or broad. Good advice is advice that works for you as a writer and helps you write better books. Sometimes it's specific little things - I have a book with my editor at the moment and only yesterday she told me about a line of text - the thought's an MC - that made her seem arrogant. And while I disagree with her, I understand where she's coming from and accept that others might too. So I'll have to add four words to that thought - "if he wanted to". It seems pointless to me but I don't want my readers to get the wrong impression of my MC.

She also comes up with much broader but useful advice for me. Once she commented that after the fourth page of reading about an MC's house, she thought she didn't really need to know any more just in case I started describing the termites in the wall! Good advice too - I do tend to over describe things.

Personally if I had a crit of Dean's work it would be about his characters. I like them. But they always make me feel inadequate as a reader. Because they're always just typical everyday Americans, with a talent that can earn them untold wealth or whatever else they want in life. There was one - I can't remember which book he was from - but he actually had a previous conviction for drug dealing. But that wasn't a flaw for him. It was the motivation that had made him turn his life around, start up a counseling service for adicts, start earning megabucks, and begin building his new dream house full of the most tastefully artistic furniture - because you know, he was an artistic soul too etc etc! And I thought to myself - this is just your typical American drug dealer?!!! What am I doing wrong with my life? Where did I go so horribly astray? I don't even measure up to a drug dealer!!!

I think that's a pretty broad sort of critique, but it's genuine and I have no way of knowing whether its either of any worth to Dean Koontz or not. Only he could judge that.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[pmmg]

I need Mr. Koontz to write a book about me. Just an average joe with a lot of computer knowledge but somehow no megabucks. What are all these certs good for anyway?

 

[Ankari]

Yes.

I remember doing beta reads/critiques with many Mythic Scribes members earlier in my career. On behalf of my former self, I'm sorry. I did this quite often. Rewrite a sentence, suggest different words, or go so far as urging writers to change their stories to fit my preference.

Sorry Steer, I know I did this to you.

Now, I don't even look at word choice (unless I didn't understand the sentence at all) nd won't try to write for the author. I focus on things internal consistency, plausibility, pacing, level of interest, and immersion. The minute details will be up to a copy editor. My duty is to make sure the story is good.

 

[Penpilot]

As others have said, it's not about advice being specific or broad. Either approach can be good or bad. To me, good critiques are about the critiquer and their earnestness in doing their critique, not about specifics are broadness of what they say.

I mean, one time I had someone say they were busy and only had time to skim over my piece and then proceeded to get into a long-winded and very specific critique about what they thought was wrong with it.

When I critique someone for the first time, I try to figure out what they want or need from me. It's one of first questions I ask.

Some writers don't need or want help with the technical stuff like grammar, so I don't focus on it and focus in on broader stuff. At most all I do is mark down things I spot on my printout while I'm doing the stuff they want me to do so they can do a double check. While others, they want the works, from low level grammar all the way up to high level story structure.

I'll also try to figure out what their vision is, and gear my critique try to help them achieve that vision. It's not my job to change their goals. If they want to write first person omniscient, then that's their prerogative, and it's my job to help them to the best of my abilities to make their story work within that frame work, regardless of if I think it's a good idea or not.

And I agree, never try to rewrite someone else's stuff. If I think, there's an opportunity for the writer to do something more, I'll just mention that there's an opportunity to do something like develop character at a certain point, but I won't get into the specifics of how I would do it unless I'm directly asked. Otherwise, my comments tend to be on the broader side, especially if the comments are complementary.

When I do get into specifics, it's about continuity and whether things make sense, stuff like a grieving character suddenly cracking crazy jokes, or a very smart person suddenly doing something really dumb.

Any way, I think this makes sense. It did in my head. My two cents on things.

 

[Nimue]

Sometimes I wonder if threads like this are why the Showcase isn’t getting much love these days... I know I don’t feel confident in being able to give critique that meets these standards? But maybe that’s a good thing—that passing critique from a stranger on a snippet of text out of context is going to result in unhelpful advice. My question is how do you guys find those better, deeper crit partners if not through showing samples of your work to a bunch of people, Internet or in-person groups, and seeing who sticks? It’s probably too early for me to be thinking about this, given that I have such trouble writing in quantity, but here I am anyway.

 

[Heliotrope]

I have noticed the same thing. The Showcase used to be a bustling place, full of entries all the time and people commenting and offering helpful (and sometimes harsh) critique.

There are times the insecure narcissist in me wonders if I had a hand in killing the Showcase. I did love offering comments and what I thought was "helpful" advice, but perhaps I was really awful and so no-one wants to post anymore in fear that Helio will say something dumb. (That has gone through my mind on a few occasions).

I have also thought that maybe, collectively, we have all improved so much in the past few years that we now understand how futile early criticism is, and how it's probably better to wait until a manuscript is at least fully drafted before asking for critique.

Another thought I've had is exactly what Nimue suggests... that we don't know how to offer advice because it is often not taken well and ends in hurt feelings. On a public forum, posting our work at its most vulnerable can be stressful and emotional.

My question is how do you guys find those better, deeper crit partners if not through showing samples of your work to a bunch of people, Internet or in-person groups, and seeing who sticks?

To answer this question, I have come to find my best critique partners on this site not by looking at their work, but by agreeing with a million posts they've had. There are just some posters here who I have really connected with because we share similar thoughts, feelings, and opinions, on writing. There are some on here who I may not share the same thoughts (all the time) but I respect them enough to ask for help if I need it (almost always privately). I have built a really great, honest, trusting relationship with a few in particular. Some of us have exchanged emails over a year or two ago and still send each other odd bits and ends, any time, and one of my closest confidants I just PM when I need support (moral or otherwise).

So for me it's not so much about "skill" level, or having a similar writing style, or whatever. For me what is important is compatibility on how we approach writing.

As a teacher, there are a few other Lit nerds like me in my district who write and we created a little writers group, and while they are technically good, I just don't trust many of them. They can be sort of elitist and cruel, so I don't connect with them as well. Writing for me tends to be very personal. I need a group of people who come from writing at a similar angle and are not afraid to talk deep, and who won't judge.

 

[Ankari]

Excellent discussion!

I've evolved in my criticism of writers after I joined a local writing group. The time constraint we assign ourselves in giving criticism of submitted works (around 15 minutes to read and 5 minutes to offer feedback) forces me to focus on bigger items such as story structure, plot issues, internal consistencies, etc. We don't have time to nitpick on every little word choice or grammatical error. I like what I've learned from the writing group, but find the writers on this site far superior to what I read in person.

I'll visit the Critique Request forum occasionally to offer such feedback. If anyone has submitted something there and would like my feedback, please send me a message. I'll get to it when I can. Please try to keep it around 3,000 words. That will ensure I can read it in one sitting.

Some tips I've picked up from the in-person writing group:

• If there is context that will change the reader's understanding of the material, please give a short description of what came before.
• If you are seeking specific feedback about an area of concern, please add it to your description.
• Be open to all criticism. Never dismiss what is offered.
• If multiple readers comment on similar items or areas of concern, know that there is something wrong. It may not be what is reported, but it should earn your attention for a future review.
• Don't offer excuses on why the submitted piece may not be up to the reader's, or your, standards. If you already feel this way, then fix it before you submit it.

Now for critiques:

• Make sure you address the specific points the author requested you address.
• Be polite in your criticisms.
• Try to offer a point of two of what you liked. Just as in bad criticism, general statements mean less than specific statements.
• If something sounds like it requires more context, ask the author to clarify if such information was previously address in their writing. Do not dismiss it as confusing.
• Unless the author has requested detailed editing, don't offer it unless it changes the meaning of a sentence to what was intended. We are authors and should be able to discern intent.
• Offer critiques to ensure you receive them.

 

[Chessie2]

@Helio: have you considered though that maybe partnering up with a person who also writes mid grade fantasy might help you gain a better understanding of how to serve readers in that age group? Instead of partnering with writers who are serving a different audience altogether? Just an idea that crossed my mind when reading your post.

Also, I thought I read in the new forum rules that the Showcase was simply for sharing and the new Critiques section was for crits.

Suppose that I might as well come clean and say that the few times I've shared my work on this site over the years has left me angered because I share for fun and people come down on me about how this or that is wrong. It happened in my Chessie thread too. I just dont believe in harping on people's stories when not asked.

 

[Devor]

Also, I thought I read in the new forum rules that the Showcase was simply for sharing and the new Critiques section was for crits.

Suppose that I might as well come clean and say that the few times I've shared my work on this site over the years has left me angered because I share for fun and people come down on me about how this or that is wrong. It happened in my Chessie thread too. I just dont believe in harping on people's stories when not asked.

Yes, this is why there's a split. The Showcase is supposed to be for "showing off" your work without looking for too much feedback. The crit requests forum is for something you're trying to workshop a little more.

I'm realizing that I never got around to a post I was supposed to make on that - I'll start on it today.

 

[skip.knox]

I pretty much agree with the comments here about the Showcase. For myself, three factors mitigate against my using it much, and two are closely related. I'm with those who prefer to get a story at least to a respectable draft stage; or, to put it another way, to fix as much of the passage as I can. If there's a proofread-level error, it's because I missed it. But if a story is to that stage, then the couple of thousand words (I don't remember the cap now) limit is really too short. By that stage I'm looking for feedback at the chapter level and above. Which really means I need a beta reader or editor.

The third factor is that I have two live groups (not to be confused with a two live crew) locally, one of which is all fantasy writers. So, Showcase just doesn't offer anything unique for me. Emphasis on last two words.

Finding a good partner is hard. They are not only rare, they're transient. There should be a dating app for writers. Plug in genre and sample writing, critique preferences, and Go.

It really is like dating. You just have to approach people, which is awkward, and work together for a while, and then you find out you love him but he doesn't love you. Or vice versa. Or you love each other but then you grow apart. Tearful farewells, or door slamming, or someone just stops answering. OK, by that metaphor I hesitate to say what that makes an editor.

Aaanyways, I do think that the career arc is for a person to start with friends and relatives, then crit groups either live or online, beta readers before or during, but eventually landing with a professional editor. So there's going to be a certain movement through the Showcase. At the same time, I think many critiquers are themselves writers, going through their own evolution. At one stage they will find critiquing to be incredibly useful in their own work. At another stage, they won't. So that dynamic is in play at the Showcase as wel.

 

[Heliotrope]

@Helio: have you considered though that maybe partnering up with a person who also writes mid grade fantasy might help you gain a better understanding of how to serve readers in that age group? Instead of partnering with writers who are serving a different audience altogether? Just an idea that crossed my mind when reading your post.

If I could find someone who did it would be great! lol. But that hasn't happened yet.