On Writing Women. Looking for honesty...

[Heliotrope]

See, for me characters don't have to be bad ass, or gender bending, or tom boys, or super smart.... flawed yes, and "human"... I don't know how to describe it? Like Svrt, I love the concept of your story about the bear because the MC sounds so normal to me. Normal girl faces some extraordinary stuff. She isn't super bad ass. She has no intension of "rebelling against society, man," she isn't a super genius. She's just a woman character. I love that. I wish there was more of that. I see so many authors try to create these "bad ass woman characters" like Sarah Connors or Ripley, which is cool, because I like all kinds of characters, but I wish there were just more "normal" women. They always seem to be tropes. It seems like there are more "normal" guy characters... even a Hobbit is somewhat normal, to an extent.

 

[Heliotrope]

Like, it seems like in fantasy it is totally okay for "simple farm boy to save the world." But there are never just "simple farm girls." They are always princesses, or priestesses, or goddesses, or queens, or mothers or supernatural, or have crazy kick ass combat skills, or are super brilliant scientists or are otherworldly beautiful. Where are the normal girls doing awesome stuff? Just normal, flawed girls being awesome? I could care less if the simple farm girl was into soccer or tea parties or smoking a pipe in her rocking chair. I just want to see a normal girl being the hero.

*Note, Svrt, that is one thing I like about your style in general. Even Lost Dogs feels very "human" to me, like you have mastered that ability to make characters feel like real people, even when they aren't.

 

[noob of the north]

This! You finally articulated it. Adult tomboys are rare. It's a state that's acceptable among girls but unacceptable among women, to be matured out of. I never did...or at least I haven't yet. If anything i've gotten to be more tomboyish.

That was why I hated Caddie Woodlawn...everything about her identity i related to was abolished when she "matured." As of rejecting her tomboyishness was the last stage of her character development. Ew.

Haha, I will definitely stay away from Caddie Woodlawn. I get more tomboyish with age too, and more open about it probably. It's just that most of the time, as a woman, my goals in life are shown as much less valid than my peers', especially in media (and still some of those peers get offended by my choices, go figure). Wanting to find stories which talks about us in some way is part of the draw with stories, and it's sad that I mostly find it in male characters and not female adult characters, to the point where I've stopped looking and just write them myself.

 

[noob of the north]

How do you feel about Tiffany Aching? I like to view her a bit like Pratchett's version of Harry Potter, except more bad ass, but maybe that's just me.

Ah, I've heard nothing but good things about Tiffany Aching, and those books are definitely on my reading list, I just haven't gotten to them yet. Being a Pratchett-version of Harry Potter, and more badass, is definitely a strong selling point.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

See, for me characters don't have to be bad ass, or gender bending, or tom boys, or super smart.... flawed yes, and "human"... I don't know how to describe it? Like Svrt, I love the concept of your story about the bear because the MC sounds so normal to me. Normal girl faces some extraordinary stuff. She isn't super bad ass. She has no intension of "rebelling against society, man," she isn't a super genius. She's just a woman character. I love that. I wish there was more of that. I see so many authors try to create these "bad ass woman characters" like Sarah Connors or Ripley, which is cool, because I like all kinds of characters, but I wish there were just more "normal" women. They always seem to be tropes. It seems like there are more "normal" guy characters... even a Hobbit is somewhat normal, to an extent.

would totally read a story about a shy, introverted girl dragged on a quest when she just wants to go back to her hobbit hole and eat food

Bilbo is so relatable.

 

[noob of the north]

Like, it seems like in fantasy it is totally okay for "simple farm boy to save the world." But there are never just "simple farm girls." They are always princesses, or priestesses, or goddesses, or queens, or mothers or supernatural, or have crazy kick ass combat skills, or are super brilliant scientists or are otherworldly beautiful. Where are the normal girls doing awesome stuff? Just normal, flawed girls being awesome? I could care less if the simple farm girl was into soccer or tea parties or smoking a pipe in her rocking chair. I just want to see a normal girl being the hero.

*Note, Svrt, that is one thing I like about your style in general. Even Lost Dogs feels very "human" to me, like you have mastered that ability to make characters feel like real people, even when they aren't.

I adore this.

 

[noob of the north]

would totally read a story about a shy, introverted girl dragged on a quest when she just wants to go back to her hobbit hole and eat food

Bilbo is so relatable.

Please write this.

 

[Heliotrope]

would totally read a story about a shy, introverted girl dragged on a quest when she just wants to go back to her hobbit hole and eat food

Bilbo is so relatable.

Exactly. Where are these girls/women? Why are there so many boy characters like this, but not girls? Why have women in fantasy been put on a weird pedestal for so long, where they are hyper idealized, but never feeling.... real? Normal?

 

[Svrtnsse]

*Note, Svrt, that is one thing I like about your style in general. Even Lost Dogs feels very "human" to me, like you have mastered that ability to make character

This is definitely what I'm trying to do. I'm very anxious to see how it pans out among people who don't have any connection to me though. I've got high hopes, but...

Anyway, it's grounded in my thoughts on world building. By creating characters that readers can get familiar with, it's easier to create a sense of wonder when fantastic and mysterious things happen.

(Typing on phone)

 

[Annoyingkid]

Oh man I'm so glad you read it and found the quote! I was going to go there next.

I think this is really what bothers me the most about the way female characters have traditionally been portrayed in fantasy... like these sort of a-sexual beings... either too interested in being angelic and virginal, or so focussed on being "the strong female character warrior who hates men and is not interested in sex".

It feels so unnatural. Sorry people, women like sex. We have desires and passions and we make mistakes and we like boys (or girls) too. Even as a youth I knew this felt weird. It wasn't that I was hunting out sex in books, it was more that I wanted to see women portrayed as real people, and sex, or at least some resemblance of normal human emotions, is a big factor with that..

Does the SFC often stay a virgin though?

Doesn't the "strong female character" typically sleep with the male MC at some point, and act as his "reward" at the end and submits to him afterward? In a fantasy of being able to "tame" the strong woman through "corrective" sex.

 

[Heliotrope]

Yes, this drives me crazy too. How about "strong female character" sleeps with male MC because she wants to, and she has desires and is a whole person.

 

[Steerpike]

Yes, this drives me crazy too. How about "strong female character" sleeps with male MC because she wants to, and she has desires and is a whole person.

Monza Murcatto in Best Served Cold, though I don't know I'd describe anyone in that book as "whole."

 

[Russ]

As a long time ardent feminist, I agree with your analysis of Spec Fic Helio. Despite its many claims to push the boundaries and to promote new ways of looking at the world the field has also been a reflection of the society it was written in and produced a lot of material with very stereotyped female characters. There are a few examples that defy that conclusion, but they are swamped by the bulk of the works. This problems exists in other fields as well, if that is any comfort. I was at a panel discussion about women in thrillers last year, and things go really out of hand. So I guess the stereotypes still carry a lot of weight.

If you want well developed characters, including trans and gay, in the spec field I would suggest you look at some of the real cutting edge work of the SF guys who formed "the new wave" a couple of decades back, and that you run, not walk, and start reading Nalo Hopkinson, particularly her short work.

PS- concur with you about Dune as well

 

[Heliotrope]

Thanks Russ!

run, not walk, and start reading Nalo Hopkinson

Will do! Now I have Christmas reading

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Exactly. Where are these girls/women? Why are there so many boy characters like this, but not girls? Why have women in fantasy been put on a weird pedestal for so long, where they are hyper idealized, but never feeling.... real? Normal?

i just feel like female characters aren't as authentic to the diversity of humans; they slide neatly into tropes. warrior. princess. etc etc. nobody gets to be socially awkward or complicated or having weird obsessions or someone who screams when they see a puppy or constantly wants to stuff their face hole w/brownies.

especially YA heroines feel weird and manufactured because they're all "strong female characters" who don't have any individual qualities really.

Writing Red Nights made me realize that because all the characters are female, and every role in my diverse cast is a female one. I ended up writing women in ways they typically aren't written.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Please write this.

It sounds fun

 

[Heliotrope]

Yeah. I mean it is everywhere still. Look at Stranger Things. A group of five normal boys try to stop an evil force. The only two girls in the show are either super crazy good at video games (better than the boys), or have crazy telepathy skills. The only normal woman is the mom... but there is the old "mom" trope again. lol.

There has to be a reason why it wasn't five average girls trying to stop an evil force... why? What is that reason? Why can't girls be average? Why is the go-to always boys?

Could an average Hobbit woman have set off to Mordor? Would it have changed the story? Was Tolkien worried the Dwarves wouldn't be able to control themselves?

 

[Ban]

Yeah. I mean it is everywhere still. Look at Stranger Things. A group of five normal boys try to stop an evil force. The only two girls in the show are either super crazy good at video games (better than the boys), or have crazy telepathy skills. The only normal woman is the mom... but there is the old "mom" trope again. lol.

There has to be a reason why it wasn't five average girls trying to stop an evil force... why? What is that reason? Why can't girls be average? Why is the go-to always boys?

Could an average Hobbit woman have set off to Mordor? Would it have changed the story? Was Tolkien worried the Dwarves wouldn't be able to control themselves?

Haven't seen Stranger Things, but isn't that whole show a homage to the eighties? At least part of the reason for the boy cast could be because that's how similar 80s coming-of-age stories were (I hope that's what this show is..)

 

[Annoyingkid]

To me it makes no sense that the strong female would be anti sex with the male MC being the only exception. It's either one or the other. Some people are against sex. But it's really insulting to asexuals or celibates to have them then do it because they just "met the right man", because that's what these groups of people hear all the time in reality. "Oh you just haven't met the right man".

 

[Devor]

Haven't seen Stranger Things, but isn't that whole show a homage to the eighties? At least part of the reason for the boy cast could be because that's how similar 80s coming-of-age stories were (I hope that's what this show is..)

Insomuch as the discussion is about Stranger Things or Narnia or LOTR on their own, there's a lot that can be said in defense of these works, but I don't really get the impression the point here is to single them out for attack, so much as a broader point about what's missing that they would like to see in general.