Rant: Non writers live in a dreamworld.

[Devor]

Anyone who takes their shot, be it writer, actor, artist, dancer, musician, whatever, is worthy of respect whether they hit or miss. Because they answered the question of what if, and can live without regrets. People who think money are the measure of all things are entitled to their views. But it's certainly not something I need to become used to, as I am entitled to not associate with them.

I think anyone who puts their art ahead of their well being had damn well better answer one question first: Do I even have a shot?

I don't mean to judge anyone who writes for a hobby in their passtime, or somebody who is convinced they can make it. But at the bare least you need to have the good judgment not to spend your life on a hopeless task.

Let's call it a feasibility test. Sure there's a learning curve, but it also takes a certain level of skill just to move up that curve. Some people, try as they might, are for who knows what reason, barely able to budge. Maybe they just lack talent, or they can't find the right help, or they're not dedicated enough, or they're convinced they're higher on the curve than they really are. But you've got to be realistic. Where are you on the curve, are you moving forward, and will you be able to hit the top?

If the answer isn't "Hell's yes," then that person desperately needs some perspective.

Here's an article you need to read:

The Sure Thing

^ According to the article, people who look like they're taking extreme risks to everyone else.... in reality, they're not. They're acting on a Sure Thing because they've been able to think it through and solve problems others have given up on.

I mean, risk your livelihood? Are you mad?

I know. I can't even get someone to commission my artwork when I offer to do it for free, and when I show people my stuff, they say, "oh someone'll buy that", because everyone thinks it's like the better mousetrap - build and they'll come, but it never happens. I haven't made a thread on this forum, but I did on two others, offering to illustrate or do cover art for free, and the only replies I got where "Nice stuff, someone'll take you up on your offer.", and the one mod who told me I was selling something (for free?), pulled my thread and threatened to throw me out of the forum. Even the artists themselves somehow just don't get how hard it is to get your stuff seen.

If you're really willing to do a project for free, let me see your work, and if it's any good I'll find something for you that'll get at least a few hundred views.

 

[Annoyingkid]

That is a pretty low bar you want to set. Results be damned, here is your blue ribbon for showing up. That can be a very good strategy for helping children develop self esteem and a work ethic, but at some point results have to matter.

They are your family. If you choose not to associate with them because they don't think enough of the graphic novel trilogy you are working on (but do apparently think you are smart enough to get a masters degree) that is your call. I think it is the wrong one.

At least for me, 100% belief that what I'm doing is worthwhile is required to be motivated to draw and write everyday. Anything that persistently undermines that belief is cut, blocked, whatever. I'm absolutely ruthless with that. I don't care if I've known you for 100 years. If you think the things I'm serious about are a big joke, you're blocked. I'm not going to debate the person over it.

My entire point with this topic is that we each have different value systems and ways of seeing life which we need to start respecting. And respect doesn't mean a "blue ribbon." It means basic courtesy. Not mockery. I don't do it for the money, others do everything for money. We're all entitled to live the lives we want without being shamed for it.

 

[pmmg]

Well, that sounds pretty hard core, and I am sure there must some places between 100% on board, and treating things like a big a joke. I don't think any would tolerate those who treat their passions like a big joke for very long. Sounds like you have had some poor experiences with people making fun of your work. I suppose, fortunately, that has not been my experience, but if it was, I would probably see less of them as well. I am okay with people not sharing my passions, and having their own, but I find I am kind of Zen about it. If you want to do your thing, and I want to do mine, and those two things happen to meet up well, than great, but if not, it ain't no crime. We don't really have to go the same way together.

We all have issues, and issues help us to grow, I find I can afford to treat things in a way where ruthless is not required. But then, maybe if I did, my productivity would go up....

If those around you are telling you your art is a waste of time, then a little less of them would seem in order. But ruthlessly removed...that seems a bit extreme. Family is supposed to have your best interests in mind. If they don't, who does? From far away, what do I know? Nothing really, but I would hope it is not so bad that they must be ruthlessly let go of.

Peace to you. Sorry you are having it rough with those around you.

 

[Dark Squiggle]

At least for me, 100% belief that what I'm doing is worthwhile is required to be motivated to draw and write everyday. Anything that persistently undermines that belief is cut, blocked, whatever. I'm absolutely ruthless with that. I don't care if I've known you for 100 years. If you think the things I'm serious about are a big joke, you're blocked. I'm not going to debate the person over it.

My entire point with this topic is that we each have different value systems and ways of seeing life which we need to start respecting. And respect doesn't mean a "blue ribbon." It means basic courtesy. Not mockery. I don't do it for the money, others do everything for money. We're all entitled to live the lives we want without being shamed for it.

I agree completely with the half of this - the part about mockery being inexcusable, but not the first half. In my mind, the definition of a friend is someone you are willing to take garbage from, and a unless friendship is be able to take some hits, it was never worth anything at all. If a friend refuses to treat you with respect, than that is not a friendship, regardless of anything else, and dumping such a person is necessary.
Devor I am making a new thread, in which I will post some artwork.

 

[Chessie2]

At least for me, 100% belief that what I'm doing is worthwhile is required to be motivated to draw and write everyday. Anything that persistently undermines that belief is cut, blocked, whatever. I'm absolutely ruthless with that. I don't care if I've known you for 100 years. If you think the things I'm serious about are a big joke, you're blocked. I'm not going to debate the person over it.

My entire point with this topic is that we each have different value systems and ways of seeing life which we need to start respecting. And respect doesn't mean a "blue ribbon." It means basic courtesy. Not mockery. I don't do it for the money, others do everything for money. We're all entitled to live the lives we want without being shamed for it.

Most people don't understand. They don't care to, and they can't. But I'm somewhat the same way as you (not like I can cut everyone out of my life, just a select few). I don't expect everyone in my life...or anyone...for that matter, to get it. They don't understand how hard I work and that's it's mostly for love. Sure, I hope to make a career out of my writing and pay my bills with it someday but for now, creating has got to be enough.

It's not just the writing though. I've got formatting, editing, cover commissions, etc to set up and then promotion/marketing, which I suck at. It takes a lot of courage to live openly as an artist but yeah, get it out of your head that people will understand because they won't!

 

[skip.knox]

Interesting thread. I don't worry much about art and such. I don't much care for the word. Ars in Latin. Which was distinguished from labor. It set art apart from mere labor. The one was superior to the other. It's no coincidence that those who made "art" in earlier centuries did not make a living thereby. They had their wealth from the land, which gave them escape from labor. It's inherently snobbish (the word, not necessarily the people who use it!), and I think this underlies some of the resentment and misunderstanding one hears sometimes. It's encapsulated in that Dire Straits song. Money for nothing.

I try to leave all that stuff by the side of the road. That would be harder to do, I should think, when skepticism, lack of support, or even outright disapproval comes from one's own family. I certainly can see how it could make a fellow bitter and angry, at least sometimes. Is resentment a good motivator? It wouldn't be for me, but ymmv. I subscribe to the philosophy of Elwood P. Dowd. "Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say: In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me. And I often do.

To which I'll append only this: the comments from folks here show pretty clearly that not *all* non-writers live in a dream world. Some of them, indeed, are the ones whom we hope will publish our books.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Can't help but feel you're coming at this all wrong AK. If you're a writer, it should have nothing to do with what other people think about what you do. It's all about the writing. If people look down on your choice to write - that's their choice. If they respect you for it - that's theirs too. The problem you're making is giving a crap about what they think.

If you're a writer, you write. That's should be pretty much the end of your focus. And the only concern you should have is about what people think of your work since writing is a communicative art.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[skip.knox]

>If you're a writer, it should have nothing to do with what other people think about what you do.

I do not disagree, but people feel what they feel, writers and non-writers alike. Then it's trying to figure out how to proceed from there.

 

[LWFlouisa]

Everything is but a dream within a dream.

 

[Sheilawisz]

I think anyone who puts their art ahead of their well being had damn well better answer one question first: Do I even have a shot?

I don't mean to judge anyone who writes for a hobby in their passtime, or somebody who is convinced they can make it. But at the bare least you need to have the good judgment not to spend your life on a hopeless task.

Hello Devor!

It's good that you mentioned that, since it gives me the opportunity to talk about something else that I consider important. I think that by putting art ahead of well being you mean that we care more about our artistic expression than about making a living from book sales. Well, this is how I think and feel about that:

Having financial stability or even prosperity is a great form of well being, that's true. However, there are also other types of well being. In my case, having a loving family is super important even if we are not rich. If I was given the chance to choose between my family with our modest financial situation, or being super rich but with a nightmare of a family I would choose to keep things as they are now.

Another form of well being is the one that I get from my stories.

I experience a great deal of satisfaction, pleasure and adventure with my storytelling. My stories are my creations, my friends. Without them, my life would feel empty and pointless even if I had a hundred million dollars. My storytelling is my passion, my light, my heart and my reason to stay alive, if that's what I am.

My stories are sparks that bring hope, happiness and light to an otherwise sad, cold and somber life.

That means that they are a source of great well being for me, because they counter and fight against all the bad things, pain and misery that I also have in my life. Earning money too from my stories would be great, that's for sure, but that's not why I imagine and tell them by means of writing.

There are also many Artsy people that actively seek to earn money from their creations, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Devor]

It's good that you mentioned that, since it gives me the opportunity to talk about something else that I consider important. I think that by putting art ahead of well being you mean that we care more about our artistic expression than about making a living from book sales.

That isn't what I meant.

I was responding to AK, and I was referring to those who choose to take the path of the struggling artist even to the point that it puts their financial well being at risk. Many of the people who take it that far do so hoping to sell their works and make it as an artist. If you're going to take a risk with your livelihood, you had better know what you're doing, and have a realistic assessment of your own abilities, and those abilities had better be there.

There are lots of reasons to write and that's fine. Just don't quit your day job, so to speak, unless you're damn sure your art is where it needs to be for that choice to work out.

 

[CupofJoe]

Sort of leaping obliquely. I know far too many writers, poets, musicians, that think the reason they aren't international superstars/feted by the cognoscenti [etc] is that their "art" is misunderstood or too "on the edge".
It never enters their mind that they might not be very good or more accurate, that there could be a way to do what they want that reaches more people....
Personally I hate having my fiction-work critiqued as I take it all far too personally. So I know I will never make it as a Professional Author.
Oddly I look forward having my work-work critiqued because I get better at what I do. Go figure...

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

I was referring to those who choose to take the path of the struggling artist even to the point that it puts their financial well being at risk

Fwiw, that's how I interpreted what you were saying, Devor.

I'd love to stay at home and write all day, but my wife would have a lot to say about that, not all of it nice, because I'm not in a position to support us with my writing. So I work a day job that pays a decent wage, and write when I can. I hope to some day make enough money from my writing which will, in addition to my retirement income, support us with the quality of life we have now.

I think most of what makes for a publishable story also makes for an entertaining story. Writing without a monetary motive doesn't mean you shouldn't care about the quality of your writing. Having the natural talent to tell a good story doesn't mean you should feel compelled to publish. Not having the natural talent doesn't mean you can't write a publishable story, if you work at it. If a person wants to write, then write. There is no guarantee you'll write something anyone else gives a damn about. If they like what you write, great. If they don't, fine. Take any criticism for what it's worth, apply it to your writing process if you can, and leave the rest behind. But if someone is relying on you for support, and you can't provide the necessary support with your writing, but insist on trying anyway with no other income, that someone is within their rights to object.

 

[Heliotrope]

That isn't what I meant.

I was responding to AK, and I was referring to those who choose to take the path of the struggling artist even to the point that it puts their financial well being at risk. Many of the people who take it that far do so hoping to sell their works and make it as an artist. If you're going to take a risk with your livelihood, you had better know what you're doing, and have a realistic assessment of your own abilities, and those abilities had better be there.

There are lots of reasons to write and that's fine. Just don't quit your day job, so to speak, unless you're damn sure your art is where it needs to be for that choice to work out.

Not even putting finances at risk, so much (because she has stated over and over again that finances don't matter), but putting your relationship with your family at risk. Burning bridges over something that is not a sure things is not super wise, IMO. Otherwise, when you do find yourself a starving artist, who is going to support you? Take you in? Provide you with the necessities of life? The people you told to, for lack of a better phrase, F*ck off?

It is all nice sounding to say "I don't care about the money", or "I don't need material stuff," until you are on your own and have to buy soup.

If you love to write, awesome. Most of us here can't argue with that. We all do it. But alienating family over it is..... well, really something to think through.

I have a nephew who has spent many years composing music. He did his degree in music composition. He even had to fly to Prague so the orchestra there could record one of his compositions to be used in films. He has yet to make any money. He is twenty five now and his parents are starting to gently push him to maybe get a teaching degree so he has something to fall back on. I don't think that is cruel, or being unsupportive, it is just planning.

 

[LWFlouisa]

Maybe because like, I know no matter how good a writer I am, people are reading less across the board. It's not rocket science here, I write in order to express myself and cope with my traumas. Not everyone goes into writing to make money. It's interesting, I only ever see writers who go in wanting to make money trash people who do it similar to how one writes a diary.

There is a place for both, there is no reason to trash "starving artists", whatever that means in a modern context.

I also have several disabilities that means I have to live with my parents until I can get SSI, that means I have a lot of time of my hands to write. Or it's lying around all the time being bored.

Not everyone has the same situation. But there is nothing wrong with writing for writing's sake.

 

[Sheilawisz]

I was responding to AK, and I was referring to those who choose to take the path of the struggling artist even to the point that it puts their financial well being at risk. Many of the people who take it that far do so hoping to sell their works and make it as an artist. If you're going to take a risk with your livelihood, you had better know what you're doing, and have a realistic assessment of your own abilities, and those abilities had better be there.

There are lots of reasons to write and that's fine. Just don't quit your day job, so to speak, unless you're damn sure your art is where it needs to be for that choice to work out.

Oh, I see what you mean now.

I agree that risking everything just like that would not be a good idea. I mean, if I were a great graphic artist, a powerful sportswoman or perhaps one of those super talented composers and musicians I would not abandon my regular source of income unless I was sure that I was going to make it big in the financial area of my field.

Then, why do people think that it's necessary to abandon your ordinary job while you are still developing your artwork?

If one of your novels gets accepted by a famous publisher and you get the lots-of-money advance payment that loads of people out there are hunting for, then fine! Go ahead and quit the normal job and start a new life. I guess that you would have contracts and strict deadlines to deal with, so all of your available time would have to be dedicated to your new bookselling life.

My case is very different, because I feel between little and no interest at all on the business area.

What I have observed is that many people seek not only to get some decent income from their books, but to become a super hit and earn a fortune. They seem to regard writing books as a way to get rich fast and have easy lives, if they just manage to do it right or find just the right formula or get enough practice or something like that.

They do not seem to think that something else could be involved, that actually not everyone can do it.

Well, we are all entitled to do with our lives whatever that we want.

 

[LWFlouisa]

Oh, I see what you mean now.

I agree that risking everything just like that would not be a good idea. I mean, if I were a great graphic artist, a powerful sportswoman or perhaps one of those super talented composers and musicians I would not abandon my regular source of income unless I was sure that I was going to make it big in the financial area of my field.

Then, why do people think that it's necessary to abandon your ordinary job while you are still developing your artwork?

If one of your novels gets accepted by a famous publisher and you get the lots-of-money advance payment that loads of people out there are hunting for, then fine! Go ahead and quit the normal job and start a new life. I guess that you would have contracts and strict deadlines to deal with, so all of your available time would have to be dedicated to your new bookselling life.

My case is very different, because I feel between little and no interest at all on the business area.

What I have observed is that many people seek not only to get some decent income from their books, but to become a super hit and earn a fortune. They seem to regard writing books as a way to get rich fast and have easy lives, if they just manage to do it right or find just the right formula or get enough practice or something like that.

They do not seem to think that something else could be involved, that actually not everyone can do it.

Well, we are all entitled to do with our lives whatever that we want.

To add, also if someone were suddenly a smash hit, that would be just as destructive. It becomes an extremely fragile situation.

 

[Chessie2]

I don't think many realize just how difficult it is to write professionally or even try to get there. Because, you know, writing for money is so easy when you can just click the publish button and let the masses read your materpiece. It's soooo easy to write books everyone wants to read. It's sooo easy to market and get visibility for those books. It's soooo easy to finish a book. It's sooo easy to build an audience over years and years. It's sooo easy to get respect for your work (and the fact that other writers believe what you do is easy is somewhat insulting). Sooo easy. Hah. Yeah.

 

[Chessie2]

To add, also if someone were suddenly a smash hit, that would be just as destructive. It becomes an extremely fragile situation.

Do you realize how difficult it is to even write yourself out of obscurity?

Where does this strange belief come from that one can just write up a book that will hit all these lists and make one famous? It's nigh impossible for the average writer.

 

[LWFlouisa]

Do you realize how difficult it is to even write yourself out of obscurity?

Where does this strange belief come from that one can just write up a book that will hit all these lists and make one famous? It's nigh impossible for the average writer.

Where did I say this was easy? I never said this.

I'm not saying its easy to write out of obscurity, I'm saying agents seem to want break out hits instead of consistent moderate success.

Very different thing.