Subjects that automatically cause reader discomfort

[Feo Takahari]

I got the idea for this thread after reading a story about a character, adopted into a different society, struggling to integrate himself into that society and become a respected member of it. About halfway through, it was mentioned that it was legal for members of that society to keep slaves of the protagonist's race, and the protagonist met a slaver who distinguished in his rhetoric between citizens like the protagonist and "lesser" folk like slaves. The author just treated this as a part of the society, neither good nor bad, but this so severely impacted my ability to sympathize with the protagonist's goals that I stopped reading the otherwise well-written story.

Has anyone else had this reaction to a relatively small element of a story? Do you think there's any writerly lesson to be taken from this, or is it entirely a matter of personal taste?

 

[Philip Overby]

Everyone has that "line" of which they don't want crossed. For whatever personal philosophies one has, I don't think writers should extensively worry about offending people. If they did, they'd be constantly second-guessing every single thing they write. I've had moments when I'm writing that I think, "Well, that might bother someone if I leave it here," but then it's ultimately up to the author if they want to risk that. It's impossible to gauge what is offensive to every single reader. You either play it safe and only write family friendly fiction or you go forward with whatever vision you have.

If something prevented you from further enjoying the story, then that's fine. It's your right. When reading and writing I often learn lessons about myself. There are certain "lines" I don't cross because I prefer not to. It's like anything else, it comes down to personal preference.

 

[shangrila]

Personally, I don't think I have a line. There's subjects I don't touch when I'm writing because I can't do them respectfully, such as rape, but it would take a fair bit to stop me from reading a book all together.

That said, I can't stand poorly written romances. I almost put down the Mistborn trilogy because of Vin and Elend, for example. So I suppose that might count for what you're talking about.

 

[SineNomine]

I think the big, huge, overbearing one in literature is rape, simply because it can not only offend the reader, it can do them active harm. For very good reasons some people just have the enjoyment of a book sucked out instantly by having rape, especially graphic "on screen" rape show up in an otherwise good tale, especially if it blindsides them.

I've never had a small element like that cause me to quit reading a book, but it's impossible to not be an observer of the fiction reading community and not see that lots of people do. While no author should be cowed into not writing about any particularly thorny issue (Artists, including writers, are often leading the charge on presenting uncomfortable subjects in an accessible way to people who would otherwise never approach them), I think all writers need to be aware as much as humanly possible of what these issues are and how they could potentially affect their readers. The important thing is do your damnedest to treat those issues with the respect they deserve and, yes, if you feel you can't possibly do them justice, maybe even back off from including them.

Of course, that doesn't help as advice in the case of the author of the book you speak of since the author seems to be ignorant of the fact that what he wrote could be seen as an issue. I guess that drives home the importance of being aware of the implications of what you write. Writers need to have a strong social consciousness, even if for no other reason than it helps them create believable societies, though understanding how what they write can make readers feel is pretty gosh dang important too.

 

[Steerpike]

I think it is a matter of personal taste, and I don't think readers should place a great deal of constraint on their own writing due to these sorts of considerations. Part of what literature does, sometimes, is make people feel uncomfortable. If everyone stopped writing things that made people uncomfortable and stuck only to mainstream, advertiser-approved feel good messaging, the world of literature would be a much poorer place.

I can't think of a line for me personally. There is slavery in my fantasy world, and if that makes the reader want to read something else, then that's what they should do.

 

[Roc]

Slavery doesn't put me off.

I agree with a person on rape...that's just something a lot of people are avoiding to write about, and if they do, it's not in great detail.

 

[Kit]

I agree with a person on rape...that's just something a lot of people are avoiding to write about, and if they do, it's not in great detail.

Seems to me that there's a ton of rape in books, esp in fantasy.

I think one of the big hot buttons is still homosexuality (esp male homosexuality, in the eyes of male readers). I hope that is changing, albeit with glacial slowness.

 

[dwellerofthedeep]

I don't think the question is whether or not the reader is discomforted by subjects. Extreme violence, especially sexual violence is a turn-off to many readers, with good reason. However, it is often a matter of presentation. The Hunger Games featured a lot of low-impact violence, so its not as offensive (for lack of a better word) to its demographic. Personally, I think the problem I have is when struggle is made pointless. This side-character will die now Because.
This idea is right Because, is another problem, but that's usually more a problem of author's-message than it is of subject matter.
Poor writing might offend people, but that's a matter of execution, not subject.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I'm with our feline friend Steerpike on this one.

I WANT some level of discomfort in both my reading & my writing. Discomfort is what causes the greatest emotional reactions with a few notable exceptions like the emotion of love. There are many facets of humanity, that are inherent or ever-present in reality, that are detestable. However, these actions and ideals are the drivers of conflict. In my opinion, no topic should be off limits. It's the author's choice on how graphically they display such actions, or highlight such ideals.

These topics should be included IF they are a necessary part of the story. As with any bit of writing, inflammatory or not, if it isn't necessary it should be cut. If these negative elements are necessary for the story then shying away from topics like slavery, rape, or any other negative aspect of the human condition seems like dishonesty in writing. Protecting the reader isn't giving the reader much credit. I would hate reading something where I feel like I'm being coddled by the author.

 

[WyrdMystic]

I agree, it is all about presentation and neccessity.

For me I'll give any story a chance, but if I get to a point where I physically shudder then I'll bin it, I'm looking for enjoyment in the books I read.

though for any topic, if I'm left thinking....why? what was the point in that? I'll probably bin it anyway.

 

[Ireth]

If they truly wanted to be realistic though, why are there no men getting raped? Why is only the female characters?

Interesting question. My vampire novel includes the offscreen rape of many males by females, and the MC's father is one of the victims, resulting in more than one illegitimate half-sibling for the MC. The rape is performed as a means of protection -- the rapists and victims in question are all kept captive by the antagonist, to be killed and eaten one by one by the populace of the vampire city. The antagonist has firm rules against harming pregnant women and young children, so the women are naturally desperate to conceive, and not all of the men are willing to have sex continually with every woman in the place. The MC's father is rescued from the vampires after an unknown period of time, and is very traumatized by the whole experience. At no point is it said that the rape was okay, by either the men or the women involved.

On a side note, the same novel also involves homosexuality as well, between the MC and his male love interest. No rape there, though.

 

[WyrdMystic]

New and different. Like it.

Apologies to everyone who missed it but I deleted a large chunk of my post.

Essentially, things like rape in a story serve multiple purposes, like tragedy, threat, character development even, but in most fanatsies that include the subject it is almost always female characters being raped by men and, if you took that part out, the story would not suffer meaning the sole purpose is to meet some misguided view of realism (as rape has never been limited to male/female) and to shock. Shock is good yes, but without real purpose it's just off putting filler.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Shock is good yes, but without real purpose it's just off putting filler.

Yes. That's the crux of it.

 

[Feo Takahari]

If it matters, I made another attempt to read the story, and discovered I was reacting to something much more integral to the narrative than I'd previously realized. (It's complicated, so I'll explain it in a PM if anyone's interested--basically, there's an assumption I don't agree with that underlies the entire story, and the mention of slavery was where I first began to recognize it.)

 

[Jess A]

Hmm, to address two points made above (rape and slavery):

I once read a book and skim-read to the end (I have a bad habit of doing this lately). The protagonist had raped somebody earlier in the book, it seemed. Even if it wasn't described (I never read the scene if it was there), the fact the 'good guy' had done it just put me off, no matter how bad he felt. I did not feel he could redeem himself. I just feel that strongly about that issue.

I put it down right away.

As for slavery, one of my book's protagonists was raised in a society which keeps slaves. He was raised to believe it was normal, but he eventually comes to realise the practice is wrong (especially as he himself becomes a slave). In his eyes, anyway. On top of this, another protagonist comes from a country that also keeps slaves.

I won't deny it is hard for me sometimes to write that some of the protagonists at some stage view slavery as normal. So I certainly want them to change this view throughout the novel. But it doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as rape does. Slavery seems to be a common theme in fantasy.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

The protagonist had raped somebody earlier in the book, it seemed. Even if it wasn't described (I never read the scene if it was there), the fact the 'good guy' had done it just put me off, no matter how bad he felt. I did not feel he could redeem himself. I just feel that strongly about that issue.

Evil acts committed by a protagonist can make them unredeemable for some readers. What if the rapist was a villain? Would it have the same affect for you on the overall story?

 

[Steerpike]

Thomas Covenant is one character that comes to mind. He's not particularly likeable to begin with, but I think Donaldson did a good job with him.

 

[Jess A]

Evil acts committed by a protagonist can make them unredeemable for some readers. What if the rapist was a villain? Would it have the same affect for you on the overall story?

I did not address this obvious point, my apologies.

If the rapist was a villain and the rape scene was not described - just mentioned - I would be more likely to continue reading. I do not like to read about rape in any case - it makes the hair stand up on my neck, it makes me very uncomfortable. If the rape scene - villain - was described, but I was really enjoying the book, then yes, I would continue, but I would skip that passage and go to the next chapter.

---

Feo: Any reason you can't explain on this public thread?

 

[Jamber]

I have to admit, I never really got over Thomas Covenant's behaviour. He was just that bit too... besmirched. I enjoyed the first in the series a lot, but never read on, and I think perhaps the dreaded R was why.

Yet it's a strange thing, though: that moment in George R R Martin's series when we start feeling for Jaime, the one who threw a child out a window. I find the GOT series disturbing and gripping at the same time, for many reasons (some of which my hopelessly moral conscience frowns at me for).

Maybe that's the appeal (for me) of GOT: it shakes me out of my comfort zone into a world that's that little bit too real, and I can tell myself I'm being naughty because of it.

I think I'm with those who read looking for a little bit of discomfort. But it has to be uncomfortable for a reason, even if that reason is just to make me question my values. Irrational discomfort (that doesn't comment on rationality)... No, thanks.

Jennie

 

[Amanita]

I don't have any subjects that make me stop reading "automatically". At least, I can't think of any at the moment. It's always about the way the subject is being treated.
There are some subjects such as slavery for racial reasons that I prefer to stay away from in my own writing, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. If the author starts to justify it and actually shows all characters of the "slave race" being miserable if not taken care of by their masters or something, the point to put the book away is reached. The same goes for other matters as well.
I don't think anything should be excluded if it would normally happen in a situation like the one described in the book.
One of those is the fact that some and often many men of all cultures, races and religions start to rape women in war if they have a chance to get away with it. I don't want to speculate on why that is and usually, the perpetrators don't talk about it, but I don't think pretending it doesn't exist will make it go away. Still, I have problems writing it in my own stories just for the reasons described by others.
Because that subject matter is so taboo, it's extremely hard to write the perpretators in a believable manner without villifying them completey. Some may argue that even attempting this is immoral but I can't really believe that all the Red Army soldiers committing rape at the end of WWII for example where evil without any chance to ever lead normal lifes again.
Writing about evil things people did talk about is much easier to do in a convincing manner.

All in all I'm with the group of people who don't believe that literature should gloss over the unpleasant parts of human nature. This doesn't mean that they have to be in every story though.