Blending Two Continents/Cultures

[D. Gray Warrior]

I am creating a fantasy word that combines the Malian Empire, the Songhai, and aboriginal Australia into one empire.

The geography would closely resemble Australia, and their religion and language would be similar, but it is also a civilization that prospers off of gold and salt. They also use camels and elephants for transportation.

There are two ethnicities: A dark people called the Shurians, and a slightly lighter, but still dark people called the Hastodi.

Would it make sense to have a Malian- themed empire in an Australian like continent? How well would the two cultures mix? And how do I avoid offending people?

 

[WooHooMan]

The trick with these African empires is that they were between Europe, the Middle-East and the Congo. They could make their money off of trade and the more land they covered, the more trade opportunities they had.
Australia has always been way more isolated which is probably why no empires (that we know of) existed. There was just no practical reason to have empires.

Also, remind yourself that you aren't just taking the two cultures and putting them together. You're making your own culture with inspiration from two real cultures. There's a big difference. Once you get into that mindset, "mixing" cultures becomes easy.
I myself have "mixed" Celtic with Hawaiian, Sikhs with post-apocalyptic and Fijian with bikers. Anything can mix with anything, you just have to get creative.

 

[Chilari]

Yeah there's nothing wrong with mixing cultures. I'm mixing the Incas with neolithic stone circle-building proto-Celts for one of mine. My whole continent is basically Peru meets the Orkney islands in terms of fauna and flora, with two particular regions have Orkney-like climate and the whole centre of the continent being high altitude dry plains with a canyon running down the middle. The early dominant culture has the Orkney climate and the Skara Brae housing, the Incan agricultural innovation, and the Incan way of growing an empire. And stone circles. Because stone circles are cool.

 

[Bruce McKnight]

Once you have your basic culture concept, make sure the culture fits the setting. Most cultures evolve out of necessity of the land. I suspect Inuit culture would be a lot different if the same people lived for centuries in the Congo.

Your choice to mix camels with elephants struck me. I would research them both a little bit (diet, temperature tolerance, habits, etc) and make sure that the continent/environment you are creating would make sense to support them. If it does, great. If it doesn't you could tweak the land or even tweak a beast into something a little different (maybe you make ice camels or flying elephants or something slightly less ridiculous - maybe there is an animal that isn't native but was imported for some reason, like a hunting dog).

Overall, though, I think it's a great way to start fleshing out a civilization.

 

[Jabrosky]

I have no problem at all with mixing different cultural influences when world-building. I've done it myself many times before. My personal favorite is mixing together ancient Egyptian, Nubian, and various sub-Saharan African influences.

The OP has a really neat concept BTW.

 

[e r i]

Interesting mix! As an Australian, and a fellow world-builder, I'm interested to know why you chose to mix Australian Indigenous culture with the Songhai and Malians.

Australia has, as far as we're aware, never had an Indigenous Empire. If you follow Jarod Diamond's point of view (Guns, Germs, and Steel), Australia developed no local empire precisely because the geography could not support the rise of empire-like societies. The largest Indigenous societies lived along the coast of Australia, and even then, we have no native animals that could be domesticated to fulfil the function of animals like horses and camels in the Old World (Asia, Middle East, Africa, Europe). Having said that, feral camels who were brought over from the Old World are doing real well in the Australian outback (as are feral horses, actually) so you may have a winner there! Not sure about elephants though. Which part of the Australian landscape were you drawing inspiration from? We have quite varied biomes, so you might want to look into that. Central Australia is a dead zone and really, it's not a place where one builds empires. But you might have more luck in the less-harsh, like the Mallee region?

Having said that, Indigenous Australians have totally unique elements to their culture and world view. Drawing inspiration from them would be amazing!

But just a heads up on "borrowing" (as opposed to being inspired by) elements from "Indigenous Australia". 1) Indigenous Australia is, and was, not a single monolithic culture. You had coastal people desert people, people who lived in the mountains etc. which would have an affect on their culture right?. 2) You might want to do some serious research on how fraught things can get between Indigenous and non-Indigenous folk. (This is very general advice. I know nothing about you or your motivations, so just bear that in mind). I don't mean to scare you off, because I think it's great that someone finds Australian Indigenous culture a rich source of inspiration. But I also know first hand that this is a sensitive thing, so my advice: research, research, research!

Sounds cool though. Can't wait to see how this unfolds

 

[D. Gray Warrior]

Interesting mix! As an Australian, and a fellow world-builder, I'm interested to know why you chose to mix Australian Indigenous culture with the Songhai and Malians.

Australia has, as far as we're aware, never had an Indigenous Empire. If you follow Jarod Diamond's point of view (Guns, Germs, and Steel), Australia developed no local empire precisely because the geography could not support the rise of empire-like societies. The largest Indigenous societies lived along the coast of Australia, and even then, we have no native animals that could be domesticated to fulfil the function of animals like horses and camels in the Old World (Asia, Middle East, Africa, Europe). Having said that, feral camels who were brought over from the Old World are doing real well in the Australian outback (as are feral horses, actually) so you may have a winner there! Not sure about elephants though. Which part of the Australian landscape were you drawing inspiration from? We have quite varied biomes, so you might want to look into that. Central Australia is a dead zone and really, it's not a place where one builds empires. But you might have more luck in the less-harsh, like the Mallee region?

Having said that, Indigenous Australians have totally unique elements to their culture and world view. Drawing inspiration from them would be amazing!

But just a heads up on "borrowing" (as opposed to being inspired by) elements from "Indigenous Australia". 1) Indigenous Australia is, and was, not a single monolithic culture. You had coastal people desert people, people who lived in the mountains etc. which would have an affect on their culture right?. 2) You might want to do some serious research on how fraught things can get between Indigenous and non-Indigenous folk. (This is very general advice. I know nothing about you or your motivations, so just bear that in mind). I don't mean to scare you off, because I think it's great that someone finds Australian Indigenous culture a rich source of inspiration. But I also know first hand that this is a sensitive thing, so my advice: research, research, research!

Sounds cool though. Can't wait to see how this unfolds

I am sorry if I offended you in any way. I understand the dangers of falling into stereotypes.

The idea for my world came about from studying aboriginal mythology and I was also interested in the Malian Empire, so I decided to combine them into one culture.

I will do further research into aboriginal Australia, so instead of basing them on aboriginals in general, I will base it off of one particular group.

The geography is actually similar to Africa, since it can support an empire (just look at Mali, Songhai, Egypt, Nubia, Axum, etc.)

 

[Ashur-is-King]

My advice is to ascertain what, exactly, you want the aboriginal Australian elements to contribute to your West African elements. I phrase it that way because I feel compelled to echo the excellent points made by both WooHooMan and eri about the geographies and levels of social development under discussion here.

There are a couple of related points here. First, it does strike me as a challenge to blend the two in a way that would seem plausible, bearing in mind factors of geography and levels of social development.

Aboriginal Australian societies were all hunter-gatherers (I am aware there was some New Guinean-derived horticulture on the Torres Strait Islands), whereas the West African cultures of the Malian and Songhai empires were agro-pastoralist societies with Iron Age technology and a certain amount of urbanization.

This said, although I think it poses a challenge, I also think it is an interesting one, and I actively encourage you to follow through with it. This brings me to my second point: find a way to mix the two seamlessly.

In our world, Australia was isolated from the currents of civilization in Eurasia and significant parts of Africa for thousands of years, while West Africa advanced to the Iron Age and forged very significant links with the Islamic world in the Middle Ages.

However, in your fantasy world, you have some options. One option is to construct a different geography and somewhat different biota. For example, you could make your continent larger and perhaps reduce the percentage of it that is desert, and give it an Australian-themed biota.

Drawing on Jared Diamond’s book here, you might try to find, or invent, plants that could be domesticated as crops. You could also have a very different prehistory, one in which the Australian megafauna did not die off and some were domesticated by the people.

My point here is that with a productive suite of domestic crops and large animals to eat and use as draft, people living in an Australian-themed continent could conceivably create chiefdoms, kingdoms, and even larger empires with trade-based economies. For historical and biogeographical reasons, if you do go down this route, I would advise you to steer clear of using camels, elephants, and other Eurasian and African biota.

As an aside, one last little piece of advice: don’t worry about offending people. Build societies that look and feel real, and use them to help you create great characters with great stories. Anyone who has a problem with that is not someone worth listening to.

Anyway, fascinating concept! Let us know how it turns out, eh?

 

[Jabrosky]

On the other hand, the very fact that Aboriginal Australians were traditionally all hunter-gatherers means we have barely any idea of what an indigenous Australian culture that had developed food production and urbanized settlements would look like. It might be a bit easier if we imagining them receiving significant influences from other parts of the world (e.g. India or China), but then the Australians might have to sacrifice some of their "indigenous" qualities.

Though now that I think about it, mudbrick architecture like you see in West Africa (or the Nile Valley, Mesopotamia, and the American Southwest for that matter) would be appropriate if these Australians were living in the stereotypical desert environment with scattered billabongs...

 

[e r i]

I am sorry if I offended you in any way. I understand the dangers of falling into stereotypes.

You haven't offended at all D. Gray Warrior! You're genuinely doing to (going to be doing) research, so how's that a bad thing? I just thought an Australian perspective would be useful, so glad to be of any help

 

[Jabrosky]

Coincidentally or not, I just started sketching a scene set in a hypothetical Australian civilization (working name for it is "Lemuria"). It's not going to have any intentional West African influences like that of the OP though. Some the architecture might look vaguely Dravidian or Southeast Asian, but for the most part their culture draws from various Aboriginal sources. For example, their main deity is a "Rainbow Serpent" like that found in some real Aboriginal stories.

I should have the finished drawing up in my personal art thread (in the "Fantasy Art" subforum) within a few days.

 

[seth.omorrow]

Interesting cross. In any case, Australian aboriginal culture had changed very little by the time of colonization, and it is generally theorized that the Aborigines were among the first to migrate from Africa thousands of years ago. Aspects of their culture bear great similarity to that of Mali. Same goes for Songhai, to a lesser extent (greater Islamic influence).

 

[Terry Greer]

I'm always a bit worried when mixing cultures is discussed as in any world those cultures are the result of both geography (geology and biome as well when it comes to building and surviving) and history (sometimes massive amounts of history and migration). Simply mixing them doesn't work as they are all products of their place and time.
They simply would not re-occur unless the conditions were identical - which by the very setup isn't true.

e.g. aboriginal culture developed in a world with no other influences from outside. It occurred in isolation. Without that complete isolation it wouldn't have taken the form it did. There simply wouldn't have been able to roam without obstruction and without contact with other cultures (look how fast cultures normally fall apart when contact with other cultures occurs.
The same goes for any culture and empire.

So maybee I'm missing the point but lifting cultures whole is I think pretty much pointless.

However, using them as inspiration for designing your own cultures by researching the features of those cultures you want to include is a different matter.

 

[BronzeOracle]

I'm also an Aussie and our ancient and Indigenous history also partly inspired me in my writings. Its fantastic that you are interested in bringing Australian social or environmental elements into your story. I think if you are inspired by it then why not incorporate it, as long as you some research and are aware of some of the contemporary issues.

In terms of understanding the enormous impact of European colonisation on Indigenous societies and the legacy this has left, I recommend watching the 5(?) part TV series called The First Australians, made about 10 years ago. Not sure how available it is overseas but take a look at it if you can, it would compress a lot of reading and it tells the wide ranging story of how Aboriginal and European cultures both evolved over the past 250 years, through the experiences of certain individuals at certain times and places across the country. Its very dramatic and engaging.

I think its good advice to see what particular aspects of the culture and environment you are interested in, what these mean for your story and then apply these. As noted above, according to writers such as Jared Diamond there were reasons why agriculture and animal husbandry did not flourish here - poor soils, uncertain rainfall, isolation - if these were different then the hunter gathering societies would have given way to agricultural based chiefdoms and possibly even states. Apart from Guns, Germs and Steel, you can also read The Future Eaters by Tim Flannery, which goes into the environmental sensitivity of the continent (which is often overlooked) and the prehistoric impact that Indigenous people may have had on the megafauna and the landscape of Australia - from what I've read this point remains contested by scientists as I believe it also is for the prehistoric impact of humans on the Americas.

There were over 200 'nations' or tribal groups in Australia with distinct languages and traditions and levels of material culture - there were big differences between tropical coastal, temperate, arid and island cultures - and they were connected by trade and cultural routes. Unfortunately almost all of the information on these societies has been lost as they were verbal traditions and fell quickly to disease, warfare and starvation before they were valued enough to be documented. One group that was lucky to be documented were the Arrernte of central/arid Australia, as there happened to be a European who was interested in their culture and language and he wrote things down and took photos, but this did not happen often so a lot of Australian indigenous culture has been lost.

If you are mixing agricultural societies with hunter gatherers then this could make for some interesting social and cultural interactions and conflicts, and if we follow the writing of Jared Diamond this would have played out across the world as agricultural communities expanded. There was an interesting episode on this in The History of Ancient Britain with Neil Oliver. I think I remember him showing these enormous standing stones erected by hunter gatherers and he wondered if they were saying 'we are here, we exist, we will not disappear' as if they were trying to hold back the tide of social change. Very poignant.

Lastly, I would caution about making simplistic 'noble savage' type representations of hunter gatherers in their interactions with agricultural or industrial societies. Its one thing to acknowledge the loss of culture and poignancy of sudden social change, often violent and filled with psychological harm, as one society marginalises another. This truly has some horrible legacies as we see in Australia. Its another to say one society is better than another morally, spiritually or intellectually - I think that would be very sensitive ground either way. What I love about Jared Diamond's writing, for all its flaws, is that he looks at people as fundamentally the same but shaped by their very very different experiences.

I'm happy to answer any questions you have on Australiana if that would help, feel free to post here or message me. I'll try to keep swearing to a minimum

 

[BronzeOracle]

Another thought. It is possible for hunter gatherer and agricultural societies to coexist in a particular region but I think it would depend on an environmental barrier to the expansion of agriculture. I lived in India for 2 years up in the Nilgiri mountains and there were a number of tribal cultures there that were distinctly different from the mainstream Hindu agricultural societies of the plains that would have absorbed them a long time ago except for the mountainous terrain. An example were the Toda people which had a fascinating culture with some interesting similarities to Australian Indigenous culture - such as a dreaming spiritual concept and use of song lines. Similarly there were also tribal cultures that remained in forested country that had for some reason been protected from agriculture. But all of these tribal cultures were marginalised and under increasing pressure as development encroached on their areas and they interacted with the larger societies. Breakdown of social and economic structures, alcoholism, domestic violence - it was all too similar to what is happening in Australia.