So i'm new and kinda been wanting to bounce some ideas off people, and found this forum. To get started i have been creating a fantasy world, and i have thought up of a system for "spirits", aka entities bound to certain places, buildings, or objects. They derive power from belief and what they're bound to. For example, a spirit could be bound to a river and as such they would reflect its nature in a ethereal form (Basically the river itself can manifest itself in a ethereal figure). A calm river would form a calmer spirit, though a river that is rough, fast, and has great rapids would likely reflect in a more aggressive and tumultuous spirit. If a river was subject to local legends, it would reflect them (Say, that the river was a river for divine fish or something, it could take on the ethereal figure of a fish person). Thats the basic idea, though I have a few more idea such as the death of spirits, artificial spirits, stuff like that. Anyways, any comments or questions on the basics of this idea?
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It works. I can say that because place-bound spirits can be found in nearly every culture, right down to modern notions about ghosts inhabiting specific houses.
A question for you about rivers: Few rivers are always one thing. A mountain stream might be violent in June but nearly dry in September. A big river might be placid most times, but become a fearsome thing during a flood. Do you see your river spirit changing its nature with the river itself? Or might those events be a kind of madness that possesses the spirit before it returns to its true nature? Or some third option?
A question for you about rivers: Few rivers are always one thing. A mountain stream might be violent in June but nearly dry in September. A big river might be placid most times, but become a fearsome thing during a flood. Do you see your river spirit changing its nature with the river itself? Or might those events be a kind of madness that possesses the spirit before it returns to its true nature? Or some third option?
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- #3
For the seasonal stuff, either the spirit would transform to reflect the state of the river, or just go into "stasis" until their favored state returns. On the natural disasters I would say that the majority of situations like floods are just natural phenomenon unrelated to spirits. Though spirits would have the ability to trigger spontaneous events like floods at will, its just a matter of why and how much energy it will take. Say, a spirit has been angered by locals disrespecting it, in a show of power they could trigger a disaster to try and "persuade" the locals to take more care.
elemtilas
Inkling
Rivers also change their nature over the course of their run. Up high in the mountains where a river springs, it might be little more than a cute, babbling brook; but as it grows, it might be full of rapids and falls; thousands of miles later, it might be sluggish and placid until at last its depths run down under the sea and its last currents are spent depositing its silts over the the rim of the continental shelf.
Surely its spirit -- its genius loci -- would also reflect the time and place of its interaction with the person it's interacting with. And perhaps it might also manifest several or even all of its varied faces and moods, all at once!
Surely its spirit -- its genius loci -- would also reflect the time and place of its interaction with the person it's interacting with. And perhaps it might also manifest several or even all of its varied faces and moods, all at once!
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- #5
I like the amalgamation of faces idea. Though I have had this idea before and I think another thing could be "fae", which area a indirect extension of the spirit which bind themselves to portions of the area or structure.
JD Sheridan
Dreamer
Might I suggest studying a bit on the Japanese Shinto belief system? The spirits, or gods, are known as Kami and they are represented by almost everything in nature. The anime "Spirited Away," is an excellent footstep with great visualization of these beliefs.
Night Gardener
Inkling
I would develop the idea of locality even further.
If you are asking the favor of the river spirit, for say, blessing a newborn at the beginning of life, you'd want to trek upstream to the headwaters of the river as closely as possible. You'd ask for healing or peace at the calm parts, invoke wrath/destruction, or the plead for the clearing of obstacles at powerful churning rapids. A prayer at the top of a waterfall would not be the same prayer you'd ask at the bottom.
Every river might then have more positive or negative associations than others. If there is a stretch of river infamous for breaking boats and drowning people, and people brought their negative energy to it to ask the water spirit to drown their enemies, the river over time could become even more violent.
If a hotspring was asked to heal, over time, that hotspring might become a place of miraculous healing. If you asked it to make someone sick instead of well, it might lash out at you.
It's a very interesting idea, to say the least!
If you are asking the favor of the river spirit, for say, blessing a newborn at the beginning of life, you'd want to trek upstream to the headwaters of the river as closely as possible. You'd ask for healing or peace at the calm parts, invoke wrath/destruction, or the plead for the clearing of obstacles at powerful churning rapids. A prayer at the top of a waterfall would not be the same prayer you'd ask at the bottom.
Every river might then have more positive or negative associations than others. If there is a stretch of river infamous for breaking boats and drowning people, and people brought their negative energy to it to ask the water spirit to drown their enemies, the river over time could become even more violent.
If a hotspring was asked to heal, over time, that hotspring might become a place of miraculous healing. If you asked it to make someone sick instead of well, it might lash out at you.
It's a very interesting idea, to say the least!
WooHooMan
Auror
How does one derive power from belief?
I noticed this is an increasingly common convention when dealing with deities but I never understood the logistics of it.
And should I take this to mean that if no one believes in the spirit’s existence, it would cease to be?
I noticed this is an increasingly common convention when dealing with deities but I never understood the logistics of it.
And should I take this to mean that if no one believes in the spirit’s existence, it would cease to be?
- Thread starter
- #9
I've actually tackled the same question, and go about in two ways in my fantasy world. The first and primary deals with the metaphysical, how ideas interact with each other, the idea of ideas, pretentious stuff like that. Short of it is that literal magic in my world is reliant off of ideas, and with spirits being "magical" in nature, it kinda lends themselves to being dependent and swayed by collective belief.
The other way I tackled it is quite physical, it's "mana". It has three common forms, but the relevant form is that of ethereal "mana". As you may be able to guess, the idea of magic being composed of ideas lends this to being quite commonly shared between beings. Just the mere act of believing something just ever so slightly grants it power and authority, and when you get groups of people, that is where real power becomes evident.
For the final point, not usually. The world itself is composed of magic and can usually sustain a spirit, or the collective unconscious acknowledgement of it (Such as unknown untouched lands, empowering the spirit as such). Though if a spirits connected lands, item, structure, etc. is destroyed, and belief in it draws thin, it will likely "move on" and become one with the world again. This can also work inversely, if a spirit is destroyed its lands or objects will suffer drastic consequences.
elemtilas
Inkling
Another way to think of it is like wireless power transfer. Belief generates power within the supplicant which is then broadcast where it's picked up by the local spirit being.
Just watch out for belief vampires! Malevolent spirit beings that masquerade as genii loci but prey on the wayward prayers of supplicants. Some will even answer prayers, in order to induce the supplicants to keep on producing energy! Kind of like cuckoos. They'll move right in and take over before either supplicant or genius loci know what's going on!
As for whether a power-starved genius loci ceases to be or not is up to you. It could, which might lead you down some interesting paths, like when later generations decide to take up the "old ways" again. Who knows what being might fill the void!
You could also posit that they become so weak they can no longer function, and all the prayerful energy kind of just builds up in the vicinity. Until something goes boom!
WooHooMan
Auror
I guess from there, I'd be left asking: what is power/energy? Like kinetic energy? Electricity?
Regardless, I like the basic point of that convention. It's kind of the norm that in a fantasy world, there are gods and monsters and stuff that would naturally be "more important" than regular ol' mortals so I've always seen the point of this convention to not really be an attempt at interesting worldbuilding or nuanced metaphysics but just a way to move some importance back to the mortal players in a setting.
Which is great because I find fantasy tends to suck when it gets bogged-down in cosmic power hierarchies.
Good answer. I've been doing more or less the same thing in my setting. In fact, it's the basis for how my magic works. Except I don't have the religious element since belief can extend past prayer. The "spirits" in my setting are created from the beliefs/understand of others but can sustain themselves with their own belief in themselves. Although that's a new thing in my setting. Like spirits only recently started to figure-out how to believe for themselves. There's a character in my story, a spirit of lapis lazuli, who has a whole arc about this.
I'm not crazy about the "mana" thing, honestly. I'd recommend dropping that angle. I think adding a physical component to something that is basically inherently spiritual/abstract muddles things more than is necessary. It also kind of contradicts the whole metaphysical angle which seems to be the appeal/point of this whole spirit business so you'd kind of be pushing against the direction you're pulling. At least, that's how it looks to me.
How?
I'm not against the idea but I'm having a hard time visualizing that. If there is matter that can exist without a spirit attached to it, shouldn't it be assumed that material things don't require a spirit's presence to exist as it should?
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- #12
For the clash of the metaphysical/physical, I think there is a way to balance both. I think that having all components of the world being grounded purely in the metaphysical will create a "aloofness", which can be alleviated by presenting physical mechanics in the world. Plus the use of metaphysicality can help enhance the physicality (And vice versa). (I might delve into this in another thread sometime in the future)
For the question of spirits being unconnected to things, not everything has a associated spirit. Spirits are a sort of "tier" of spiritual manifestation in the world, right under gods, who are under pure ideas. Spirits are the most localized of events where belief manifests, again, only being attached too specific lengths of terrain and objects. Their umbrella of influence is a shadow of that of gods and the aspects of magic itself, and as such aren't bound to every single object or inch of space. The annihilation of the spirit would do a few things, first is where does that pent up spiritual energy go? As stated by Elemtilas above, probably a explosion, or even something more akin to a radioactive decay.
elemtilas
Inkling
Exactly.
Just as there is an equivalence of matter and energy in the material world; so there is in the spiritual world. Whatever it is these spirits feed on in the beyond world, the process works similarly to how lightbulbs feed in the mundane world.
The latter involves mystical runes and incantations calling upon the Spirits of Elektra City and an arcane Device called the Quoil of Tesla. The former is no less magical a transference!
