Did I make my magic system boring?

[SUN WUKONG]

I'm currently planning a novel called Ashbranded, which I'll start writing officially in November. I already have the magic system planned out. The consequence of using too much magic for the Ashbrand society is losing all feeling/emotions and "turning to ash." While it might be described as losing their souls, there's not really a spiritual aspect to it. It's just a loss of emotion, but since that includes emotions like guilt and love, many of the ashbranded who "turn to ash" become menaces to society. Others simply waste away in silence, and others can decide to do good things even though they have no emotions about it whatsoever. My question is this: is that kind of consequence much more boring than actually losing ones' soul to the devil and turning outright evil or insane as a result of using magic?

My thinking when creating this system was that essentially losing ones' soul to the devil is too generic and has been done too many times. I'm guessing losing all emotion may have been done too, but in my thinking it added a bit more complexity because the outcome is uncertain. But what are your thoughts?

No such thing as a boring magic system, only boring authors, and stories. The most successful books actually have pretty plain almost boring consequences for magic,
How you incorporate the consequence into the story is what would keep readers immersed.

But this idea in particular is not boring at all, in fact you should be more worried about not being able to do it justice,
I thought of some things you could think about[incase you have not already thought of these];

How profound is the loss of emotions?
losing emotions is different from being nonchalant or insensitive, I don't believe anyone would 'do' anything if they truly lost all emotions

Are all emotions lost?, if not, why do people lose certain emotions?,
Is it a process that can be interrupted midway? before all emotions are lost
maybe the life they led, or the circumstance at that critical moment [anything thought inducing, readers need to be allowed to come up with all sorts of theories as they read]

How much do the inhabitants of this world understand about turning to ash?
or how much research effort is being invested? In a world of magic surely there would be some people they would very much like to get their mind back

I don't know about your plot but usually practitioners are not your average folk, and magicians have a stereotype or doctrine of being prepared, it would be interesting to mention that the really experienced or strong guys have multiple contingencies set on their bodies or even set to activate automatically in the event they turn to ash [the same way some people want to be cryopreserved when they die while others prefer cremation, the characters in your book should have unique "characters"]

Technicalities, 'using too much magic'
when does this register? and when do your emotions [burn?]
Is it a paid actor that would let your character finish an emotional high stakes moment, or does it tap him out immediately a certain bar is reached?
Define the 'too much' for your world, is it in terms of the magic difficulty/tier or simply something like overexertion[this would be brutal cause it's supposed to be common]

As human beings we naturally lean towards self preservation, so there actually should not be much or any close case of turning ash, unless the ashbranded have a really strong hive mentality or selfless sacrifice ideologies, if that is the case it must be really emphasized or people turning ash would seem forced and like a pointless sacrifice, unless the events or living conditions in the book are really hardcore and chaotic readers would easily feel disillusioned.

If a mountain was pressing down on their comrade[for some reason], most people would scream at the top of their lungs, try some familiar methods/magic, yes, but would most likely not willingly turn into a vegetable, some people think they would but are simply not self aware enough, sure they would cry about the loss, or be depressed from then on [character development], this could lead to them having the resolution to turn ash some other time in the future when faced with a similar choice.

The more realistic your portrayal of the human psyche the stronger of a tool this consequence could be, and the more emotionally attached readers would become.

[If this was to be in my book I would write it to be more of like a cancer, as opposed to a gunshot,
giving provision for some characters to actually try to hide symptoms of losing their emotions, my victims would include but not be limited to the most kind hearted people, guards, researchers, a leader/ruler], sadness and pity mines. hehehe

 

[dollyt8]

No such thing as a boring magic system, only boring authors, and stories. The most successful books actually have pretty plain almost boring consequences for magic,
How you incorporate the consequence into the story is what would keep readers immersed.

But this idea in particular is not boring at all, in fact you should be more worried about not being able to do it justice,
I thought of some things you could think about[incase you have not already thought of these];

How profound is the loss of emotions?
losing emotions is different from being nonchalant or insensitive, I don't believe anyone would 'do' anything if they truly lost all emotions

Are all emotions lost?, if not, why do people lose certain emotions?,
Is it a process that can be interrupted midway? before all emotions are lost
maybe the life they led, or the circumstance at that critical moment [anything thought inducing, readers need to be allowed to come up with all sorts of theories as they read]

How much do the inhabitants of this world understand about turning to ash?
or how much research effort is being invested? In a world of magic surely there would be some people they would very much like to get their mind back

I don't know about your plot but usually practitioners are not your average folk, and magicians have a stereotype or doctrine of being prepared, it would be interesting to mention that the really experienced or strong guys have multiple contingencies set on their bodies or even set to activate automatically in the event they turn to ash [the same way some people want to be cryopreserved when they die while others prefer cremation, the characters in your book should have unique "characters"]

Technicalities, 'using too much magic'
when does this register? and when do your emotions [burn?]
Is it a paid actor that would let your character finish an emotional high stakes moment, or does it tap him out immediately a certain bar is reached?
Define the 'too much' for your world, is it in terms of the magic difficulty/tier or simply something like overexertion[this would be brutal cause it's supposed to be common]

As human beings we naturally lean towards self preservation, so there actually should not be much or any close case of turning ash, unless the ashbranded have a really strong hive mentality or selfless sacrifice ideologies, if that is the case it must be really emphasized or people turning ash would seem forced and like a pointless sacrifice, unless the events or living conditions in the book are really hardcore and chaotic readers would easily feel disillusioned.

If a mountain was pressing down on their comrade[for some reason], most people would scream at the top of their lungs, try some familiar methods/magic, yes, but would most likely not willingly turn into a vegetable, some people think they would but are simply not self aware enough, sure they would cry about the loss, or be depressed from then on [character development], this could lead to them having the resolution to turn ash some other time in the future when faced with a similar choice.

The more realistic your portrayal of the human psyche the stronger of a tool this consequence could be, and the more emotionally attached readers would become.

[If this was to be in my book I would write it to be more of like a cancer, as opposed to a gunshot,
giving provision for some characters to actually try to hide symptoms of losing their emotions, my victims would include but not be limited to the most kind hearted people, guards, researchers, a leader/ruler], sadness and pity mines. hehehe

Wow, thanks so much for your thorough response and excellent questions! I'll try to answer a few.

Firstly, there is a very strong herd mentality in this society. Losing one's emotions isn't considered a big deal; in fact, it's a natural fact of life, just like aging and memory difficulties are in ours. The way it works is there's a magical mark called an ashbrand that burns down over time as people use their magic in their daily lives to make the environment livable (they're in a volcano and their magic is all about the connection with/controlling volcanos and volcanic activity). As they lose their emotions and their ashbrands turn from bright, glowing orange to gray, they eventually go to join the Elders. The Elders are separate from the main society because they are basically just sitting and waiting for death. There are no loving grandparents in this society; just people who are sitting around with zero emotions.

I've changed the magic system slightly, by the way. The way it works is that there's a "flame" within every one of their bodies that burns emotions to allow them to practice magic, and like an actual fire, they need fuel to keep that flame alive. While their emotions go away gradually as they are burned up, the flame itself that keeps them alive doesn't go out until there's absolutely zero emotion left, at which point they quietly expire. AGain, this is a normal part of life for them and isn't considered a problem.

Yes, the process can be interrupted somewhat at any time by simply not practicing magic, but not totally. The bodies will still age, but very slowly, and the flame will still burn emotions gradually until death, because it is the flame that actually keeps them alive.

There are also other ways to put out this "flame." There are practitioners of ice magic in the world who can directly attack the flame within their bodies and make it sputter or even go out, potentially killing them instantly. There's no loss of emotion in this case, because the ice magic doesn't attack the "fuel" for the fire but rather the fire itself.

There's no widespread research on how to prevent the loss of emotions; however, there are some ashbranded who hate the idea and fight against it, most notably the main character. However, the fact that it is as inevitable as aging in our world means that all eventually lose their emotions and begin to care less and less about the fact that they are doing so.

Another note that I didn't put in the original system is that specific emotions are burnt up first. So for example, parents who always fight out of love for their child burn up love first, making them much harder or even angry towards their child. It's one of the saddest facts about the magic. At the same time, someone who starts out determined to be a villain will likely burn up anger and hatred first. Eventually, though, they will just lose all emotions, so all end up the same way in the end.

As far as this mechanism being a paid actor, the idea is to go as far away from that as possible. It's a fact of life, not something that is meant to add extra drama in a specific instance for the most part. Every time the character uses a lot of magic, he simply has to be aware that this will speed him towards his fate faster, but either way he will have the same end. And it takes a lot of burning before the flame goes out, so most ashbranded don't reach that point until they're quite old. It's not a matter of selfless sacrifice, but rather of inevitability.

On the final thought about self-preservation, a later plot point in the series are two main abilities: one is the ability to transfer the "fuel" of emotions to revitalize an ashbrand. This requires a person to give up fuel in order to help another person. It's a rare technique and fully sacrificial. The second ability is more sinister. A later book will show that some people have discovered how to leech another person's ashbrand, draining them of emotion but revitalizing the attacker; essentially a vampiric skill that is outlawed but still practiced in certain cases.

As far as trying to be realistic, as weird as it may sound, I'm drawing from my own feelings when writing this, as I've been on medications that completely numbed me or made me extremely depressed. I also drew from this song:

(TW for depression and mental health, so listen at your own risk) when thinking about the magic system. So the main character definitely struggles with this and starts out being heartbroken as certain emotions are burned up, only to become more and more numb to the idea as he loses his ability to feel.

Hope this answers your questions, and again, thanks for your detailed response!

 

[dollyt8]

No such thing as a boring magic system, only boring authors, and stories. The most successful books actually have pretty plain almost boring consequences for magic,
How you incorporate the consequence into the story is what would keep readers immersed.

But this idea in particular is not boring at all, in fact you should be more worried about not being able to do it justice,
I thought of some things you could think about[incase you have not already thought of these];

How profound is the loss of emotions?
losing emotions is different from being nonchalant or insensitive, I don't believe anyone would 'do' anything if they truly lost all emotions

Are all emotions lost?, if not, why do people lose certain emotions?,
Is it a process that can be interrupted midway? before all emotions are lost
maybe the life they led, or the circumstance at that critical moment [anything thought inducing, readers need to be allowed to come up with all sorts of theories as they read]

How much do the inhabitants of this world understand about turning to ash?
or how much research effort is being invested? In a world of magic surely there would be some people they would very much like to get their mind back

I don't know about your plot but usually practitioners are not your average folk, and magicians have a stereotype or doctrine of being prepared, it would be interesting to mention that the really experienced or strong guys have multiple contingencies set on their bodies or even set to activate automatically in the event they turn to ash [the same way some people want to be cryopreserved when they die while others prefer cremation, the characters in your book should have unique "characters"]

Technicalities, 'using too much magic'
when does this register? and when do your emotions [burn?]
Is it a paid actor that would let your character finish an emotional high stakes moment, or does it tap him out immediately a certain bar is reached?
Define the 'too much' for your world, is it in terms of the magic difficulty/tier or simply something like overexertion[this would be brutal cause it's supposed to be common]

As human beings we naturally lean towards self preservation, so there actually should not be much or any close case of turning ash, unless the ashbranded have a really strong hive mentality or selfless sacrifice ideologies, if that is the case it must be really emphasized or people turning ash would seem forced and like a pointless sacrifice, unless the events or living conditions in the book are really hardcore and chaotic readers would easily feel disillusioned.

If a mountain was pressing down on their comrade[for some reason], most people would scream at the top of their lungs, try some familiar methods/magic, yes, but would most likely not willingly turn into a vegetable, some people think they would but are simply not self aware enough, sure they would cry about the loss, or be depressed from then on [character development], this could lead to them having the resolution to turn ash some other time in the future when faced with a similar choice.

The more realistic your portrayal of the human psyche the stronger of a tool this consequence could be, and the more emotionally attached readers would become.

[If this was to be in my book I would write it to be more of like a cancer, as opposed to a gunshot,
giving provision for some characters to actually try to hide symptoms of losing their emotions, my victims would include but not be limited to the most kind hearted people, guards, researchers, a leader/ruler], sadness and pity mines. hehehe

Oh, and another thing is that there's a snippet of a journal at the beginning of each chapter that comes from the main character's parents and details their downfall as they lost their emotions. This was to add to the emotional impact and show there are real consequences.

 

[SUN WUKONG]

Oh, and another thing is that there's a snippet of a journal at the beginning of each chapter that comes from the main character's parents and details their downfall as they lost their emotions. This was to add to the emotional impact and show there are real consequences.

Sounds nice

 

[SUN WUKONG]

Wow, thanks so much for your thorough response and excellent questions! I'll try to answer a few.

Firstly, there is a very strong herd mentality in this society. Losing one's emotions isn't considered a big deal; in fact, it's a natural fact of life, just like aging and memory difficulties are in ours. The way it works is there's a magical mark called an ashbrand that burns down over time as people use their magic in their daily lives to make the environment livable (they're in a volcano and their magic is all about the connection with/controlling volcanos and volcanic activity). As they lose their emotions and their ashbrands turn from bright, glowing orange to gray, they eventually go to join the Elders. The Elders are separate from the main society because they are basically just sitting and waiting for death. There are no loving grandparents in this society; just people who are sitting around with zero emotions.

I've changed the magic system slightly, by the way. The way it works is that there's a "flame" within every one of their bodies that burns emotions to allow them to practice magic, and like an actual fire, they need fuel to keep that flame alive. While their emotions go away gradually as they are burned up, the flame itself that keeps them alive doesn't go out until there's absolutely zero emotion left, at which point they quietly expire. AGain, this is a normal part of life for them and isn't considered a problem.

Yes, the process can be interrupted somewhat at any time by simply not practicing magic, but not totally. The bodies will still age, but very slowly, and the flame will still burn emotions gradually until death, because it is the flame that actually keeps them alive.

There are also other ways to put out this "flame." There are practitioners of ice magic in the world who can directly attack the flame within their bodies and make it sputter or even go out, potentially killing them instantly. There's no loss of emotion in this case, because the ice magic doesn't attack the "fuel" for the fire but rather the fire itself.

There's no widespread research on how to prevent the loss of emotions; however, there are some ashbranded who hate the idea and fight against it, most notably the main character. However, the fact that it is as inevitable as aging in our world means that all eventually lose their emotions and begin to care less and less about the fact that they are doing so.

Another note that I didn't put in the original system is that specific emotions are burnt up first. So for example, parents who always fight out of love for their child burn up love first, making them much harder or even angry towards their child. It's one of the saddest facts about the magic. At the same time, someone who starts out determined to be a villain will likely burn up anger and hatred first. Eventually, though, they will just lose all emotions, so all end up the same way in the end.

As far as this mechanism being a paid actor, the idea is to go as far away from that as possible. It's a fact of life, not something that is meant to add extra drama in a specific instance for the most part. Every time the character uses a lot of magic, he simply has to be aware that this will speed him towards his fate faster, but either way he will have the same end. And it takes a lot of burning before the flame goes out, so most ashbranded don't reach that point until they're quite old. It's not a matter of selfless sacrifice, but rather of inevitability.

On the final thought about self-preservation, a later plot point in the series are two main abilities: one is the ability to transfer the "fuel" of emotions to revitalize an ashbrand. This requires a person to give up fuel in order to help another person. It's a rare technique and fully sacrificial. The second ability is more sinister. A later book will show that some people have discovered how to leech another person's ashbrand, draining them of emotion but revitalizing the attacker; essentially a vampiric skill that is outlawed but still practiced in certain cases.

As far as trying to be realistic, as weird as it may sound, I'm drawing from my own feelings when writing this, as I've been on medications that completely numbed me or made me extremely depressed. I also drew from this song:

(TW for depression and mental health, so listen at your own risk) when thinking about the magic system. So the main character definitely struggles with this and starts out being heartbroken as certain emotions are burned up, only to become more and more numb to the idea as he loses his ability to feel.

Hope this answers your questions, and again, thanks for your detailed response!

So its a natural part of their lives, as inevitable as death, for those who choose to use magic right?
or does it burn passively? if it only burns when magic is used, most people would rather not use magic [I'm assuming living in the volcano is possible without actively using magic because of the vegetable elders], a loving parent would not want their child to experience their loss of affection,
There has to be a strong reason to willingly use magic in this world based on the inevitable consequences, In our world, if death could be avoided we would.

Looking pretty fleshed out already, I can assume you no longer think it's boring, congratulations
Remember to prioritize your health

 

[dollyt8]

So its a natural part of their lives, as inevitable as death, for those who choose to use magic right?
or does it burn passively? if it only burns when magic is used, most people would rather not use magic [I'm assuming living in the volcano is possible without actively using magic because of the vegetable elders], a loving parent would not want their child to experience their loss of affection,
There has to be a strong reason to willingly use magic in this world based on the inevitable consequences, In our world, if death could be avoided we would.

It does burn passively, but only a very small amount. Helping the society survive in the volcano is impossible without actively using magic. Only 30% of the society can use magic, and the other 70% are looked down on because they can't and called "ashdrains" partly out of resentment because those who can use magic have to protect and support those who can't, requiring them to use their magic to clear poisonous ash out of the air, etc. In theory, someone could survive into their hundreds if they avoided using magic altogether; however, this isn't the norm because it is a natural fact of life and behavior in the society. I think it's important to understand that magic is an essential part of their culture, and while a few might try to stop using it altogether to preserve themselves, there is a very strong societal expectation that each person has their role to fulfill and must use magic to do so.

Looking pretty fleshed out already, I can assume you no longer think it's boring, congratulations
Remember to prioritize your health

Thank you! Yeah, I've definitely developed it more since first writing this. This is my NaNoWriMo project, so I've been writing through the book and I'm currently over two-thirds of the way through the novel.

Lol tbh I stink at prioritizing my health, but I'll try! Thanks!

 

[Greg Szulgit]

Boring!!??? Far from it! I think the idea of Faustian bargains has been played out a bit, and your take on it is more fresh and interesting. Especially from a Humanist perspective (I like the idea of 'evil' not coming from an external source as many religions would traditionally explain, but from a lack of humanity).
My opinion is that the only way to make this boring would be to make your writing plot-focused. You have a special opportuity to maintain the setting of your story as a fantasy world, but what the story might be about is morality and what makes a good society. Perhaps your 'villains' are those that see different ways forward when ethics runs in the opposite direction to virtue (e.g. Trolly problems / the thesis of Apocalypse Now -- look to Coln. Kurtz).

Of course, all of this will only work if that's what actually interests you. Write your sensibilities and your voice. If I get to read your books, eventually, it may feel like the first time that I read Ursula Le Guin.

I'm currently planning a novel called Ashbranded, which I'll start writing officially in November. I already have the magic system planned out. The consequence of using too much magic for the Ashbrand society is losing all feeling/emotions and "turning to ash." While it might be described as losing their souls, there's not really a spiritual aspect to it. It's just a loss of emotion, but since that includes emotions like guilt and love, many of the ashbranded who "turn to ash" become menaces to society. Others simply waste away in silence, and others can decide to do good things even though they have no emotions about it whatsoever. My question is this: is that kind of consequence much more boring than actually losing ones' soul to the devil and turning outright evil or insane as a result of using magic?

My thinking when creating this system was that essentially losing ones' soul to the devil is too generic and has been done too many times. I'm guessing losing all emotion may have been done too, but in my thinking it added a bit more complexity because the outcome is uncertain. But what are your thoughts?

 

[dollyt8]

Boring!!??? Far from it! I think the idea of Faustian bargains has been played out a bit, and your take on it is more fresh and interesting. Especially from a Humanist perspective (I like the idea of 'evil' not coming from an external source as many religions would traditionally explain, but from a lack of humanity).
My opinion is that the only way to make this boring would be to make your writing plot-focused. You have a special opportuity to maintain the setting of your story as a fantasy world, but what the story might be about is morality and what makes a good society. Perhaps your 'villains' are those that see different ways forward when ethics runs in the opposite direction to virtue (e.g. Trolly problems / the thesis of Apocalypse Now -- look to Coln. Kurtz).

Of course, all of this will only work if that's what actually interests you. Write your sensibilities and your voice. If I get to read your books, eventually, it may feel like the first time that I read Ursula Le Guin.

Thank you for your encouraging input!