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How To Make an Apathetic Character A Hero

ShadeZ

Maester
I have a main female MC who is dead both literally and figuratively. She has a curse that causes her to "die" in battle in the form of her heart and breathing cease, she heals and reconstructs her body if it is destroyed, and goes into a psychological combat state in which empathy and emotion arent a factor. The question becomes how to make this character care about being good. So far best I've got is another character could serve as her conscience.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
The other character could do that, but why would the MC care? That external conscience would be no more meaningful or motivating than anything else.

I'm puzzled. Why create such a character? What is her story arc?
 

Mad Swede

Auror
Hmm. I wonder how much you know about the effects of combat? I think you need to separate what and who someone cares about from what the person is like in combat - because they aren't the same thing. Getting soldiers/combatants to stay on the right side of the accepted ethical limits in combat is one of the major challenges in military leadership. Yes, a unit can have someone who acts as its conscience, but that is meaningless if the unit leaders don't support the person acting as conscience - and if they themselves also step over the line things go downhill very fast.
 

ShadeZ

Maester
Hmm. I wonder how much you know about the effects of combat? I think you need to separate what and who someone cares about from what the person is like in combat - because they aren't the same thing. Getting soldiers/combatants to stay on the right side of the accepted ethical limits in combat is one of the major challenges in military leadership. Yes, a unit can have someone who acts as its conscience, but that is meaningless if the unit leaders don't support the person acting as conscience - and if they themselves also step over the line things go downhill very fast.
Oh it isnt a factor though I should likely reword the original post. The MC is the kind who you could tell her a village with no defense is coming under attack and she may or may not do something about it. The fact that a few hundred people may be killed isnt relevant to her, you could tell her someone is dying of sickness and she may or may not help them (her blood has healing properies), you could tell her the world is coming to an end and being that she is just about indestructible she might think something to the effect of oh well at least it will be quite.

Ironically, this character is the leader of a group of "good guys" that run around helping people. To the MC everything is like a game. Her interest is in winning the game and outstrategising the opponent the enemy is usually one who seeks to destroy her family/species. Humans backstabbed her kind in the past so she feels very little obligation to help them.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Ah, so she is not without pathos. She does have emotions, and she has memory. If she had no emotion whatsoever, if she were truly dead inside, then she could have no character arc, and there'd be no story (though she could be a villain).

With that additional information, now there's potential for an arc. You just need to write scenes in which she learns, has sympathy, evolves. How you do that is quite up to you.

You do raise the question of why she is the leader of a group that helps people when she feels little obligation to help them. Getting her to that point would make for an interesting story. Once she's there, though, where does the story go? Possibilities exist.
 

ShadeZ

Maester
You do raise the question of why she is the leader of a group that helps people when she feels little obligation to help them.
Her fathers and mother enlisted her into it. The human sypathetic god of dragons and magic, a god of light and anti magic, and a winged goddess of eagles and the skies. The group she commands are her siblings/cousins also godlings like her.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
OK. I'm still trying to reconcile her being without sympathy and indifferent or even hostile to humans, yet leading a group that's helping. Is she in the role against her will?
 

ShadeZ

Maester
OK. I'm still trying to reconcile her being without sympathy and indifferent or even hostile to humans, yet leading a group that's helping. Is she in the role against her will?
If you were to ask her she would say she idnt entirely without sympathy but it is more like the kind of sympathy you feel for a drowning mouse. Yes you could easily rescue it but there is a chance it will bite you and it is a pest. She generally considers humans cute and fragile but also annoying, destructive, and unpredictable given that humans have a history of betraying the gods out of fear or lust for their power. Regarding the situation she does it out of 1 a sense of duty and 2 usually protecting the humans means killing demons which is her favorite pastime. She is known to just leave if the issue is two human kings arguing as she puts it that at worst they will kill each other and besides that the matter they are fighting so passionately about wont matter in a century.

Add on- her twin the god of winter, childhood, and war usually does the talking as he is much more fond of humanity since they are all children in his eyes some just older than others (they're his biggest customers for war too after all lol)
 

Chasejxyz

Inkling
So a character doesn't HAVE to change during the course of a story, but there has to be a good reason for it, just like you always need a good reason to do something that breaks norms/conventions. "Because I think my world building is cool" is not a good reason, because it will be difficult to get others to care.

I recommend that you try one of those character survey/profile things for her. Even a 100% logical/without emotions character will do something "illogical" because of their own biases. A robot will do "illogical" things because the person(s) who programmed it put in their own biases, even if unintentionally. A character who is "dead inside" and doesn't have emotions or empathy is still going to have preferences.

You said that she likes to win, but what is winning to her? In Death Note, Light's team considers winning against Kira to be stopping Kira from killing people, even if they don't have evidence to prove [person] was Kira. Near, on the other hand, wants decisive proof that [person] is Kira, that he's killing people with the notebook, and that no one else will ever be able to do the same thing again. But after the ending, there are still Kira worshippers, so to some people, no one has won, because Kira's influence is still very strong in the world, even if he's no longer killing people.

If your character is part of some sort of war/battle, what does she consider win conditions? If she beats The Big Bad but the universe will end 1 second after that, does she consider that a victory even if no one is there to appreciate it? What if she dies? What if her entire species has to die for it? There are always going to be multiple ways to go about winning something, and you need to figure what she considers acceptable and not acceptable, and why that is.
 

ShadeZ

Maester
If your character is part of some sort of war/battle, what does she consider win conditions?
In small fights like them getting attacked destroying the enemy with as few casualties as able.
In big fights or solo fights crushing the enemy (you arent crushing them if your species gets whipped out or it is a close victory). The demons tried to destroy her and her family and her friends over and over often killing any mortals she befriends or they of course just die or injury or age.
 

Chasejxyz

Inkling
Okay, but why does she feel that way? Why does she care if her mortal friends die? Why is it more important to have people she presumably cares about alive at the end of the day than winning no matter the cost?
 

ShadeZ

Maester
Okay, but why does she feel that way? Why does she care if her mortal friends die? Why is it more important to have people she presumably cares about alive at the end of the day than winning no matter the cost?
She would see it as barely a victory. In her eyes victory is completely defeating the enemy so that they are at your mercy before they even know you've moved. A battle where someone she is fond of is killed is a loss not a win to her because even if she does still defeat the enemy they somehow got to "her heart" they somehow hurt her be it on an actual or just personal level.
 

Mad Swede

Auror
Oh it isnt a factor though I should likely reword the original post. The MC is the kind who you could tell her a village with no defense is coming under attack and she may or may not do something about it. The fact that a few hundred people may be killed isnt relevant to her, you could tell her someone is dying of sickness and she may or may not help them (her blood has healing properies), you could tell her the world is coming to an end and being that she is just about indestructible she might think something to the effect of oh well at least it will be quite.

Ironically, this character is the leader of a group of "good guys" that run around helping people. To the MC everything is like a game. Her interest is in winning the game and outstrategising the opponent the enemy is usually one who seeks to destroy her family/species. Humans backstabbed her kind in the past so she feels very little obligation to help them.
Ah, so in fact your MC isn't apathetic. Rather, she's not motivated by a desire to care for or protect other people. Thats isn't the same thing as being apathetic, and it's not even the same thing as lack of empathy. She is in fact motivated by winning, by beating her opponents in combat. So if you wanted her to act to protect some village you'd need to motivate her to see the survival of the village as being part of her victory. You could take it further and try to get her to see the number of survivors in the village as a measure of success.
 

ShadeZ

Maester
Ah, so in fact your MC isn't apathetic. Rather, she's not motivated by a desire to care for or protect other people. Thats isn't the same thing as being apathetic, and it's not even the same thing as lack of empathy. She is in fact motivated by winning, by beating her opponents in combat. So if you wanted her to act to protect some village you'd need to motivate her to see the survival of the village as being part of her victory. You could take it further and try to get her to see the number of survivors in the village as a measure of success.
Well and there is still a slight chance of her helping. Her brother was a human before he became a god (he was made a god at the age 21 for heroic feats). So in having known Zeke her sibling she can relate to the pain humans feel to a very distant level. Zeke on the other hand is extremely caring toward humanity and will help them even though nearly all the gods consider themselves above helping humans directly. One of the characters who has the highest chance to affect the MC is a human scholar who travels with them to record what they are really like he is protected by Zeke so the others wont harm him
 

Mad Swede

Auror
You may be about to hate me for writing this, but having now read the whole thread I get the impression that your MC is in fact a very shallow character. Someone who only lives for combat, who only wants to fight to win. My question is, why? What is your story really about? Redemption? Becoming a goddess? Conquering evil? There must be something else other than fighting and winning, some dream, which keeps the MC going. What is it? That seems to me to be the way to answer your question.
 

ShadeZ

Maester
I get the impression that your MC is in fact a very shallow character. Someone who only lives for combat, who only wants to fight to win. My question is, why?
Good then you're getting the right impression. This isnt the only mc that the story follows and hers is a sort of a melting the heart of ice type story. Question is how can I keep readers from losing interest. To a degree I have figured out how to make her not ^ this way and why she is so now the question becomes how to show a softer edge early on. The character is ever so slightly ripping toward pro humanity at the start because she meets the scholar who consistently goes against her beliefs about humanity and how they act.

Also she is shallow in regards to drive to protect humans. But she has other deepening factors such as how she feels about the other not human races. She is the first goddess in a few thousand years to marry a non divine furthermore the individual she is married to is one commonly seen as evil by humanity and an origin species for their worlds vampire myths. Where you tell her a village of humans is dying and she would not particularly care tell her a village of faeries is coming under attack and she will come to their aid even at risk to her own well being. The reason why being she sees fae as innocent beings and doesnt see humans in the same light. Naturally this does change.
 
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Chasejxyz

Inkling
You keep people interested by having her grow and change. Show us her thoughts, why are things challenging her beliefs? How does she respond to them? Is there someone else who's telling her to stick to her old ways? If she never shows any growth then people will be frustrated.
 

ShadeZ

Maester
You keep people interested by having her grow and change. Show us her thoughts, why are things challenging her beliefs? How does she respond to them? Is there someone else who's telling her to stick to her old ways? If she never shows any growth then people will be frustrated.
Her brothers play the role of the demon and Angel on hher shoulder. Robin her little brother was an elf before becoming a godling. He was enslaved, beaten, abused, and imprisoned by humans and as such hates them with a passion and prompts Keara to kill them or ignore their pleading for help when he can. Zeke her twin sees humans as flawed but a young species prone to error and in need of guidance. Coleson is a human who behaves contrary to both Robin and Kearas belief frequently.
 

Mad Swede

Auror
Implicit in what you've written in this thread, at least for me, is that your MC suffers a degree of what could be considered racism (specism?) towards humans. At the same time, your MC isn't motivated by much more than a desire to fight things. That doesn't make for a sympathetic character, and you need to give her other depths right from the start if you're to avoid the situation where readers just don't care about how she develops. The risk with having this scholar along converting her is that you'll create what in other works would be considered a "white saviour" type of character. Thats a bit of a dead trope, and I think I'd be more inclined to let her develop and change by herself as a result of her experiences during the story. That though requires that you have a much less shallow and unsympathetic MC right from the start.
 

Futhark

Inkling
I suggest delving into her pathology. Why is she apathetic about humans? Is she certain in these beliefs? Who is influencing her?

You mentioned that she has companions that express different sides, or different truths, to her beliefs. This is the core that I think will make or break the character. She doesn’t need a guide or mentor. She needs examples set by friends. Pressure from peers. Arguments and conflict on a personal level that challenge her core values.

You also said that she is motivated by winning. There is a lot of potential here to give her other depths as Mad Swede suggests. Why must she win? What has she lost? Is it anger, or a need to prove something? Killing demons is an act of vengeance, of anger. Keeping her friends alive is an act of loyalty and love, and maybe guilt plagues her about the ones she couldn’t save. Emotional hurt and loss could have caused her to become indifferent to humanity, but the fact that she is married to an ‘evil creature’ by human standards suggests that she is not dead inside at all.

I imagine that a personal growth story arc would start with her belief that most of humanity are worthless and that it’s not worth her time to care about them; until the Inciting Event where she starts to question if her belief is not entirely true and that it is self-limiting.

Something like that anyway.
 
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