What Makes a good Stoic character good?

[Carnary Gurl]

I’m pretty much the same gist. You’re normal to me.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I'm not sure I like being asked about my mental health in a public forum, especially with a reference to it being "obvious," and offering "dysphoria" without some kind of basis. But okay.

*hugs* Thank you. I know that this is some tender territory for a lot of people, and deciding to talk some about it is brave. "Brave," gets overused and often misapplied, but as someone who, for all my endless chatter, is an intensely private person, I have deep feels about it. But I also have deep feels about being a good influence and support and how important making these connections is, especially for our younger writers. I think it's important for them to see it's not just them. Yes, they are crazy, but we all are to a greater or lesser degree and I know so many writers who I went to school with and have known in passing who don't know this. And as someone who's nutty as a fruit bat, but did have a writer and a mentor in my early life - and no interwebs, just chat rooms and whatnot, while all around me other kids were barely treading water, I think knowing and grokking being a creative and part of the creator community saves lives.

So, thank you for being brave. It doesn't go unnoticed.

 

[skip.knox]

If you are confusing autism with Stoicism, I'd have to say you are off on the wrong foot entirely. The terms speak to entirely different things, which makes me question the advisability of writing about either until you learn more. Much more. Because setting out on the wrong foot is going to take you onto wrong paths, and your readers will not appreciate it. I'll go one step further. In an earlier post, in reply to what you mean by stoicism, you talk mostly about strength and battle skills, which has nothing to do with either autism or Stoicism. Or even with being stoic in the sense of a personality attribute.

 

[Carnary Gurl]

Because setting out on the wrong foot is going to take you onto wrong paths, and your readers will not appreciate it.

What makes stoicism the wrong foot? I’ve assumed many roles for folk in my stories, and have seen stories evolve into autism, but the wrong foot sounds evil to me.

 

[Mad Swede]

What makes stoicism the wrong foot? I’ve assumed many roles for folk in my stories, and have seen stories evolve into autism, but the wrong foot sounds evil to me.

Put very simply, stoicism is an active choice. ASDs are not. That makes for very different characters.

 

[Carnary Gurl]

Put very simply, stoicism is an active choice. ASDs are not. That makes for very different characters.

So you put the right foot in, the right foot out, the right foot in, and shake it all around.

 

[skip.knox]

I did not say stoicism was the wrong foot. I said profoundly misunderstanding both the philosophy of stoicism and the social and medical realities of autism is the starting a novel on the wrong foot.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

As usual, Skip is absolutely correct. I'm getting the impression that you're getting a whole lot of your information and suppositions from anime and other media. Writers do homework for a living. In the series we have in development, one of the main characters is a 17 years-old country girl from an interesting lineage, and also an autist. Now, you might think, "Lowan, you're autistic. Why research yourself?" And the answer is we have more than one young woman and her 700lb, talking black sow. We have more than one character with a social disability, and they all get to be who they truly are when they are liberated by...

MESSAGE REDACTED

Whoops. Shhh

The point is, as in everything, autism is complicated. No two autists are the same, nor are they valued the same. So, in planning for our eventual drafting papers that they have to admit were completely shredded. It's not easy to write oneself into a story, nor should it be.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

If you are confusing autism with Stoicism, I'd have to say you are off on the wrong foot entirely. The terms speak to entirely different things, which makes me question the advisability of writing about either until you learn more. Much more. Because setting out on the wrong foot is going to take you onto wrong paths, and your readers will not appreciate it. I'll go one step further. In an earlier post, in reply to what you mean by stoicism, you talk mostly about strength and battle skills, which has nothing to do with either autism or Stoicism. Or even with being stoic in the sense of a personality attribute.

For the record I did admit that I had thought Soicism is some form of autism, I never assumed anything more than that after learning more about stoicism. I have not doubled down on stoic-ness being related to autism after finding out the definition either, if there was any confusion there. Also for the record it was you guys saying that he was giving the impression of an autistic person, which after that I decided to try and pin down what he might logically fit into if he was diagnosed, while saying that I would personally rather have him undiagnosed and simply on the spectrum, since he doesn't 'neatly' fit into any one category of the spectrum. This is if I decided to make him autistic at all to begin with. He could very well be just a naturally cold and distant person, who approaches things and situations in a far more robotic way.

This being said, there's nothing stopping him from believing in stoicism while also being autistic if I elect to go that route. This being said I'm not set in stone yet on that front, none of the story has been published anywhere yet so I can always add/remove/edit as needed.

 

[skip.knox]

> I never assumed anything more than that after learning more about stoicism.
Good to hear. I totally missed that on the thread; apologies.

WRT stoicism or any philosophy, you might consider this approach. Try just writing the character. Have them behave and talk and think in ways you think are consistent, interesting, and relevant to the plot. Once you have the story done or close to done, take a step back and look at what the character did and said and thought.

Then ask yourself if that aligns with stoicism or some other philosophy or whether aligning with any sort of philosophy adds anything to the story. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but at least you'll be dealing with the actual character.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

> I never assumed anything more than that after learning more about stoicism.
Good to hear. I totally missed that on the thread; apologies.

WRT stoicism or any philosophy, you might consider this approach. Try just writing the character. Have them behave and talk and think in ways you think are consistent, interesting, and relevant to the plot. Once you have the story done or close to done, take a step back and look at what the character did and said and thought.

Then ask yourself if that aligns with stoicism or some other philosophy or whether aligning with any sort of philosophy adds anything to the story. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but at least you'll be dealing with the actual character.

Yeah I need to write him some more before I make some decisions on those fronts. This is a re-write of a story I wrote a long time ago (Right around when the show RWBY was new and exciting) and this version of this particular character has changed a lot in the re-write. It's hard to explain but for every way he's 'the same' character, there's other ways where I have him totally different. His origin has shifted about...four or five times, and even then they're kind of the same 'idea' but with minor tweaks.

The biggest change is that he's actually able to emote, or at least pretend to, so his actions don't seem as robotic to the other characters. (A canon character actually takes a liking to him because he's so good at 'acting' per say) The thing that makes me feel he's stoic (personally, I'm not trying to write him that way) is that he operates mainly on logic, his emotions are very controlled and almost muted. He can feel them and process them, but he can't really decipher the meaning behind it. Ask him about the valve modules on a t42 bomber and he'll be able to give a seminar, but ask him about something metaphysical like 'joy' or 'true love' and he totally blanks. That being said, he can kind of 'bounce off of' the right person and connect with them, it just takes him time to adjust to all the new information. Bro has been living in isolation for an odd 200 years and he grew up in (basically) medieval times, so he has a ton of adapting to do.

 

[pmmg]

Not sure how this thread led to Devor must be on the spectrum but...there it is.

I was to add. I am a hard personality. I've been called stoic and I have strong suspicions that I would be on the spectrum somewhere, or spectrum adjacent. But it has not hurt me personally to know or not know. The question of how to be a good one seems strange to me, how does one be a good stoic? or How does one, being a stoic, remain good? Which one of those is the OP'er most looking for?

I would think the first one would be to have done the readings on Stoicism and that one did ones best to live up to those principles.

The second would be the same for all of us. Discover what it means to be good and choose to be that.

I personally find the term out of place, unless this comes from a world that had Greek Philosophy. In the same sense, that a world placed in the 1400's would never stop to consider spectrum anything, a world without the Greeks would never call anyone Stoic.

Most often, when people are calling me stoic, they are intimating that I am compassionless, or stubborn about something of social import for which they don't like my take on it. I personally find that hurtful to me, but mostly, I just feel pity from them. They have not reached even the earliest level of understanding the world around them. I could argue with them, but there would be no point. So...I'll just let them call me stoic.

Truth is, people are many things at once. One is not always stoic, and one is not always unemotional.

My advice to writing this is to write it true. What and why are some of the reasons he is called such. Who are they that could so. What does he think about it, and start writing from there. In the end, a bunch of characters calling him a name wont matter if the reader never sees it. Write him true and the reader will appreciate it, even if other characters in the story get it wrong.

Anecdotally, I was watching the SuperGirl series and in it, I noticed that everyone kept saying 'Why don't you give Jimmy Olsen a chance, he such a good guy.' That came up a lost. Jimmy Olsen...such a good guy. But I started asking, what has he done to make every one thinks such, and near as I could tell, it was nothing. He was just your basic run of the mill get-along dude who made no waves and had no real opinions, save for all those safe Hollywood ones. Jimmy Olsen was a nothing to me. He could not be in the show and it would not miss him. Which is to say, having a lot of people say it, does not make it so. If you want me to believe your character is this or that, you have to show it, and make it matter.

 

[skip.knox]

"make it matter" is advice with wide applicability!

 

[pmmg]

"make it matter" is advice with wide applicability!

Seems like that should be a quotable.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Not sure how this thread led to Devor must be on the spectrum but...there it is.

I was to add. I am a hard personality. I've been called stoic and I have strong suspicions that I would be on the spectrum somewhere, or spectrum adjacent. But it has not hurt me personally to know or not know. The question of how to be a good one seems strange to me, how does one be a good stoic? or How does one, being a stoic, remain good? Which one of those is the OP'er most looking for?

If you want to be exact, oddly a bit of both, he's a protagonist that kind of doesn't really know how to be a protagonist (well, he has general inklings and theories but lacks field experience when it comes to socializing) but I also want him to be well written to be believable as a potential for a 'stoic' character.

I would think the first one would be to have done the readings on Stoicism and that one did ones best to live up to those principles.

The second would be the same for all of us. Discover what it means to be good and choose to be that.

I personally find the term out of place, unless this comes from a world that had Greek Philosophy. In the same sense, that a world placed in the 1400's would never stop to consider spectrum anything, a world without the Greeks would never call anyone Stoic.

Most often, when people are calling me stoic, they are intimating that I am compassionless, or stubborn about something of social import for which they don't like my take on it. I personally find that hurtful to me, but mostly, I just feel pity from them. They have not reached even the earliest level of understanding the world around them. I could argue with them, but there would be no point. So...I'll just let them call me stoic.

Truth is, people are many things at once. One is not always stoic, and one is not always unemotional.

This is what I'm attempting to establish with this character, I would say 80-95% of the time he'd be near or 'completely' robotic/logistical, he plays his emotions very close to the vest a lot of the time. When he does get emotional he's strong enough to at least stand up to god (or god like) beings. Though I'm not talking about the simple emotions, that you feel in day to day life. I'm talking about some idiots decided to shoot rambo's dog and send it to him in a box kind of emotions. When he feels *that* kind of emotion he becomes very powerful. For that reason he chooses to be distant, it's somewhat of a necessity for him. He is very aware of what he's capable of and very aware of the consequences of inaction, so he walks the line. Stealing a line from Superman he very much feels like he lives in a cardboard box.

My advice to writing this is to write it true. What and why are some of the reasons he is called such. Who are they that could so. What does he think about it, and start writing from there. In the end, a bunch of characters calling him a name wont matter if the reader never sees it. Write him true and the reader will appreciate it, even if other characters in the story get it wrong.

Anecdotally, I was watching the SuperGirl series and in it, I noticed that everyone kept saying 'Why don't you give Jimmy Olsen a chance, he such a good guy.' That came up a lost. Jimmy Olsen...such a good guy. But I started asking, what has he done to make every one thinks such, and near as I could tell, it was nothing. He was just your basic run of the mill get-along dude who made no waves and had no real opinions, save for all those safe Hollywood ones. Jimmy Olsen was a nothing to me. He could not be in the show and it would not miss him. Which is to say, having a lot of people say it, does not make it so. If you want me to believe your character is this or that, you have to show it, and make it matter.

Small note, I loathe when media have characters like this, video games, anime, anything. If the character could be removed and nothing would be lost, why have them there to begin with? (The Game Monster hunter Wilds has a character like this, the rest of the writing and world building is phenomenal, but that one aspect is like, huh? ) I struggle with this a lot with my smaller characters, and try to keep the cast generally smaller to avoid this as much as possible.

 

[pmmg]

Stealing a line from Superman he very much feels like he lives in a cardboard box.

Why does Superman feel like he lives in a card board box? Is your character powerful enough that he could feel the same?

You say he could stand before God, I think that unlikely. I would think him not likely human if he could.

Your character may be disconnected from normal human emotion and reaction, but he's still made of flesh and blood and has DNA. Unless, I am missing something, I think maybe you are focused on all of this the wrong way. His despondency is both a gift and a flaw. As an intelligent man, he must be aware of it. The question of what he doesn't feel must weigh on him, and make him feel quite alone. Without that ability, he may struggle at a lot of things others dont, especially when it come to forming intimate relationships.

You know....you chose this character as the one you want to write. My suspicion is, you get enough pages in, and this characters will tell you all on their own who they are, what they want to do, and how they want to go about it. You should find what they like and what they hate about themselves. And his lack of connection should be something he is trying to fix or come to peace with. It should be a lifelong endeavor.

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Why does Superman feel like he lives in a card board box? Is your character powerful enough that he could feel the same?

Though not at the start, by the end he's basically the incarnation of light itself, and can ultimately control it with very little limit other than his own stamina.

You say he could stand before God, I think that unlikely. I would think him not likely human if he could.

The phrasing here is important, I said he could stand before *A* god / Godly being, not our god, as in Jesus. This is a fictional series (RWBY) and the two gods are handled a bit differently there. He was the last line of defense against a pair of humans who tried to overthrow the then current gods of the time. At that time those two were barely enough to hold him back, He managed to subdue the two usurpers (Technically one, but RWBY lore is a bit complicated) to the point where the two gods could properly punish the usurpers. Before this he was sealed away by them (which took enough of their new found strength to allow the current gods to punish them for trying to usurp them) while he was in his weakened state from fighting them for so long.

Your character may be disconnected from normal human emotion and reaction, but he's still made of flesh and blood and has DNA. Unless, I am missing something, I think maybe you are focused on all of this the wrong way. His despondency is both a gift and a flaw. As an intelligent man, he must be aware of it. The question of what he doesn't feel must weigh on him, and make him feel quite alone. Without that ability, he may struggle at a lot of things others dont, especially when it come to forming intimate relationships.

I am planning on having him struggle a good deal with relationships, both romantic and well, social (like normal high school relationships) though he does manage to form a somewhat strong bond with someone with a similar personality type (Samus) and eventually he susses out how to befriend others.

You know....you chose this character as the one you want to write. My suspicion is, you get enough pages in, and this characters will tell you all on their own who they are, what they want to do, and how they want to go about it. You should find what they like and what they hate about themselves. And his lack of connection should be something he is trying to fix or come to peace with. It should be a lifelong endeavor.

Yeah I see this phrase a lot when it comes to writing characters, and it's happened to me before. The main protagonist of one of my other projects still follows the blueprints I set up for her, but she's very much her own thing and she's still very fun to write.

 

[pmmg]

Yeah I see this phrase a lot when it comes to writing characters, and it's happened to me before. The main protagonist of one of my other projects still follows the blueprints I set up for her, but she's very much her own thing and she's still very fun to write.

Are you saying here that you are still having trouble with this character?

 

[Naruzeldamaster]

Are you saying here that you are still having trouble with this character?

The one in this topic or the one I just mentioned?
Meiji (From Hound and Fox, if you remember that, I posted a couple chapters for feedback a long while ago) the character I just mentioned, has very much taken her own strides (she still has the 'dna' I set out for her) especially in the re-write but she is pretty solid as a character and is fun to write. (She's a 331 year old who never aged personality wise past her late twenties but has the experience of living that long, for the record, all the kitsune in my story are like this, their 'personality' clock just stops aging at some point and it depends entirely on their personality) Looking forward to writing her more, but I'm waiting until I get all of my current projects to chapter 2 before I write further on any of them. (I have a few projects going at once so I don't get burnt out, just 5 though, no more) this is to prevent myself from playing 'favorites' in my projects.

Tobi, the character in this current topic I'm still getting my feelers out for him and he's only in his first chapter. He's taken his own strides a bit too, but I'm still figuring out how to write him well while still keeping the DNA of the original idea. He's taken some interesting turns so far in the short time that I've written him. (one chapter of a planned 10 or so chapter story) The second chapter will be throwing him into some more social situations with far more characters to bounce off of, so that'll be a good experiment to see how he handles it. Worst case I'll have to chunk out some of his original DNA and see where he goes after that, best case I can keep him more as a 'reiteration' than a full rewrite.

 

[pmmg]

I am thinking not. Given the response above, you are going to have some characters to interact off of in chapter 2, that would by my advice, give them some characters to bounce off of and show how it all plays out. Mr. Spock was kind of stoic, there are plenty of examples of him to borrow from.

There is the character Q&A area of the website to role play him a little and get responses from others, and I have some things of that nature happen in the chat rooms.