Question about self marketing/promotion vs approaching publishers first

[AKaddams]

I know that this crosses two forums, so I choose this one.

My partner and I are at loggerheads on online presence before approaching publishers. He firmly believes that I will NOT get a publishing contract if i do not have an online following. I disagree, believing that having publishers/agents overseeing marketing is a better option as they have more contacts.

Which is the better option? Self promotion/online presence, approach publishers first or more of a hybrid approach?

Almir

 

[pmmg]

Well...if you were a publisher, and were going to invest your money in someone, would you rather an unknown, or one who had a following already?

If you were an agent, would you want to say to a potential publisher, believe in this guy, hes great, or believe in this guy, he's got a 1000 readers already?

There is no such thing as only the two possibilities, you can attract a publisher on either path. Nobody's path is the same.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Either way, but people are beginning to figure out that online followings do not equal sales... Several big signings of "online personalities" have proven that. Some of them "big names" in a more nonfiction field. So, to have a large following that means a damn, you have to have books available, and those books are going to find hard treading to get picked up by agents... but, new books might just work. You might be able to win some indie publisher awards before publishing, and use that as street cred for a following as well as agents, but the odds of that? Hmmm, worse than it might appear despite my wins, heh heh.

So, I'll put this number out there... 10,000 followers ain't shit, if they aren't book people into the specific genre or subgenre you write. That might sell a 100 books. 100,000 followers? That would've gotten the attention of agents at one time, maybe some still, but most are figuring out that that might mean a thousand sales. Organic Followers are the best followers or highly targeted followers, and in a saturated market finding those followers is a "good luck to ye." So, you're back to selling a shitload of books to get organic followers.

My personal opinion is a bit like this: Being a nobody with a following is no different than being a nobody to the trad publishers UNLESS you have a massive and active following, and if you have the time, wits, energy, and money to gain a massive and active following, you damned well don't need a trad publisher to make money or to get into bookstores.

Either road is tough. Good luck.

 

[Finchbearer]

As far as I know, you don’t need an online following to be traditionally published. BUT, I don’t think traditional publishers will do as much marketing for you as you think. I’ve followed traditionally published authors who put a lot of time and effort into social media, and that is pretty standard I believe nowadays for new authors, especially those writing for a YA audience, or niche genres that can gather a fan base.

With self-publishing you wouldn’t necessarily need a following either, but absolutely no one else will promote your work for you unless you pay them to, or you pay for ads.

Approach agents not publishers though.

 

[Prince of Spires]

It all starts with a great story. If you have a great story, then a publisher will pick it up, regardless of your following.

Where having the following helps is in getting the publisher (or agent) to actually read your novel. If you've got a big online following (who are relevant to your writing), then you can use that to get through to an agent or publisher, increasing the chances they'll actually read your novel and give it the attention it deserves. But no amount of following will make up for a terrible novel.*

*Okay, actually it will. If you are Taylor Swift or Barrack Obama, then it doesn't matter what you submit, it will get published. The publisher will simply hire a ghost writer and make it good. I'm just assuming you are neither of them. Cause if you are, you don't need our advice.

Don't count on the publisher doing any promotional work for you though. They have very limited budgets and a lot of authors. The sort of promotion you might get is something like a premium placement in a bookstore for a week, or the novel being sent out to a few reviewers. You will be required to most of the work in this regard, and it actually helps if you can tell the publisher what you want to do in terms of marketing. Yes it's weird, but that's publishing for you.

As for what the best option, in my opinion that would be writing and editing your novel. Only once you have that down and done it a couple of times do the other things become important.

 

[Mad Swede]

OK, writing this as someone who does have a publishing contract.

You do not need an on-line following to get an agent or a publishing contract. What you need is a good story with good characterisation, good dialogue and a good plot (meaning story arcs and character development). It doesn't need to be professionally edited or super polished, but all the basics must be there.

When you approach agents and/or publishers, be selective and don't approach those who don't deal with your genre. Follow the instructions for submissions.

Your publisher will do marketing for you, if only to recover their costs. You do not need a marketing plan to approach a publisher or agent, and it won't make any difference to their decision.

If you get a publishing contract then you will need to be available for things like book fairs, book signings and interviews. Once you get published you will find yourself answering e-mails from your readers, and at that point it can help if you have a web presence of some sort. All these things take time and it isn't time you get paid for, it comes out of your spare time.

Don't expect to make a living from your writing, only those fortunate enough to become a best-selling author can hope for that. Most of us have full-time jobs doing other things. We write for a wide variety of reasons, and we do it in our spare time.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

That is mighty optimistic. You need a great story, and a trad publisher MIGHT pick you up... You might also have a crap story and get it picked up, heh heh. See Harry Potter, which took forever and got lucky to get published if the legend is true. But this is all over the place, there's a mass of luck (good or bad) that can land a deal or not, and landing a deal is far from landing in the gravy train. Who you are now means more to some people than the story.

Publishers spend ad money on books they spend big bucks on. If you sign with a minimum advance, you pretty much get the standard no-cost-to-them promotion, which is better than nothing, but they sure aren't a big push. Press releases, mailing lists, a mention to bookstores (who may or may not order your book), and contacting reviewers and influencers in their pocket, amongst others. They certainly offer things a nobody first-time author can't possibly do, but you also have to ask yourself if you're willing to wait maybe years to see your book on the shelf.

It's all a personal choice, but as mentioned, unless your book creates a bidding war or you are otherwise a popular or hated public figure, plan on advertising your own book no matter what.

It all starts with a great story. If you have a great story, then a publisher will pick it up, regardless of your following.

Where having the following helps is in getting the publisher (or agent) to actually read your novel. If you've got a big online following (who are relevant to your writing), then you can use that to get through to an agent or publisher, increasing the chances they'll actually read your novel and give it the attention it deserves. But no amount of following will make up for a terrible novel.*

*Okay, actually it will. If you are Taylor Swift or Barrack Obama, then it doesn't matter what you submit, it will get published. The publisher will simply hire a ghost writer and make it good. I'm just assuming you are neither of them. Cause if you are, you don't need our advice.

Don't count on the publisher doing any promotional work for you though. They have very limited budgets and a lot of authors. The sort of promotion you might get is something like a premium placement in a bookstore for a week, or the novel being sent out to a few reviewers. You will be required to most of the work in this regard, and it actually helps if you can tell the publisher what you want to do in terms of marketing. Yes it's weird, but that's publishing for you.

As for what the best option, in my opinion that would be writing and editing your novel. Only once you have that down and done it a couple of times do the other things become important.

 

[skip.knox]

I see no reason not to do both. I did. An "online presence" can be as little as a web page, occasionally updated. Meanwhile, write.

As for publishers, I won't speak for them. Your best bet is to look at publisher sites and see if they talk about requiring an online presence. But I think you've jumped a rather important step. Very, very few publishers accept manuscripts directly. You will need to get an agent, who will promote your work to publishers. So the real question is, does the agent say you need an online presence?

And the way to know that is to visit agent sites and see what they say. What you will find is, different agents say different things. And don't always say everything. In the end, you will wind up with five or twenty agents who look promising to you, and you can write to them directly with this question.

Nothing beats research.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The keyword in the question was "following" although that has multiple interpretations.

I see no reason not to do both. I did. An "online presence" can be as little as a web page, occasionally updated. Meanwhile, write.

As for publishers, I won't speak for them. Your best bet is to look at publisher sites and see if they talk about requiring an online presence. But I think you've jumped a rather important step. Very, very few publishers accept manuscripts directly. You will need to get an agent, who will promote your work to publishers. So the real question is, does the agent say you need an online presence?

And the way to know that is to visit agent sites and see what they say. What you will find is, different agents say different things. And don't always say everything. In the end, you will wind up with five or twenty agents who look promising to you, and you can write to them directly with this question.

Nothing beats research.

 

[Emrick Norr]

My understanding of how to proceed in North America is this:

1) Have an online presence and a website.
2) Offers something, whether blogging or thoughts, or flash fiction, or poems, on social media to get a small following and some newsletters subscriptions.
3) Sell short stories to fantasy magazines and make a name for yourself.
4) continue to work on your novel, using what you learned from creating short stories that were bought.
5) find an agent, who will see you query letter and be interested because you have a few short stories published. that agent will go on your website and social media, and see how serious you are and what is your presence in the community. May be he/she accepts to read your manuscript.
6) the agent reads your manuscript and if it is good, he/she decides to represent you.
7) The agent finds you a book deal.

phew... I'm tired just writing this.

So in other words, I write fantasy because I like to do it, and I'm not in a hurry, but I do it one little step at a time and we'll see what happens.

 

[JBCrowson]

Some of the submission requirements for publishers have asked for a marketing strategy at the point of requesting the first 3 chapters and synopsis. Seemed a bit excessive to me, since it means I have to put work into that before there's any agreement to publish. I'm sure that what I might do with a particular publisher will surely depend on what the publisher brings to the table as well, and so I can't say what strategy I might use ahead of time. There are plenty that make no mention of any publicity or even your website.

 

[Finchbearer]

Some of the submission requirements for publishers have asked for a marketing strategy at the point of requesting the first 3 chapters and synopsis. Seemed a bit excessive to me, since it means I have to put work into that before there's any agreement to publish. I'm sure that what I might do with a particular publisher will surely depend on what the publisher brings to the table as well, and so I can't say what strategy I might use ahead of time. There are plenty that make no mention of any publicity or even your website.

If they’re asking you to come up with an entire marketing strategy, you may as well self publish as that’s half the work.

 

[pmmg]

Yes, If I am asking 'what do I need you for?', I would not expect we are going much further together.

 

[JBCrowson]

If they’re asking you to come up with an entire marketing strategy, you may as well self publish as that’s half the work.

That was precisely what I thought. If I could remember which publisher it was I would add the name so others can avoid the waste of time looking at their site.

 

[Emrick Norr]

Well, the people I know from inside the industry all tell me that you really need to have your book completed before you contact anybody in the publishing business.

And today, if you send a manuscript to a publisher directly, it will end up in the slush pile. You need to find an agent first. That will be the person who might read your manuscript or first three chapters, and you better grab their attention from the get go, or you're gone. They've got plenty of other manuscripts to read and they're good at evaluating what sells and don't sell. Their career depends on it.

Now, I'm sure someone can find some other way to meet a publisher and pitch a book project, but good luck with that if you're unknown.

I'm not trying to crush anyone's hopes and dreams, but the competition in trad publishing is fierce, and it's better to know what we're up against.

Of course, today you can make a living with self-publishing, but it's like going in business: you are responsible for everything. You take all the risks.

 

[JBCrowson]

Well, the people I know from inside the industry all tell me that you really need to have your book completed before you contact anybody in the publishing business.

And today, if you send a manuscript to a publisher directly, it will end up in the slush pile. You need to find an agent first. That will be the person who might read your manuscript or first three chapters, and you better grab their attention from the get go, or you're gone. They've got plenty of other manuscripts to read and they're good at evaluating what sells and don't sell. Their career depends on it.

Now, I'm sure someone can find some other way to meet a publisher and pitch a book project, but good luck with that if you're unknown.

I'm not trying to crush anyone's hopes and dreams, but the competition in trad publishing is fierce, and it's better to know what we're up against.

Of course, today you can make a living with self-publishing, but it's like going in business: you are responsible for everything. You take all the risks.

Not all publishers require an agent to accept submissions. If you check their websites they all seem to make it very clear if that's required or not. Some have 'open submission windows' when for a month they will take un-agented submissions, some will accept anytime. A lot of the smaller presses seem to have a quota per year, and once they accept their quota they close until next year. It's well worth checking and keeping tabs. I started a spreadsheet with details like when in the year a publisher accepts, exactly what they want (e.g. X chapters, X words, format details, use of 3rd party submission sites). I'm not at the submit stage yet, but I hope by building the spreadsheet now, I'll be quicker off the mark when I'm ready.

 

[Emrick Norr]

That's good to know JB, thanks for the info.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Well, the people I know from inside the industry all tell me that you really need to have your book completed before you contact anybody in the publishing business.

And today, if you send a manuscript to a publisher directly, it will end up in the slush pile. You need to find an agent first. That will be the person who might read your manuscript or first three chapters, and you better grab their attention from the get go, or you're gone. They've got plenty of other manuscripts to read and they're good at evaluating what sells and don't sell. Their career depends on it.

Now, I'm sure someone can find some other way to meet a publisher and pitch a book project, but good luck with that if you're unknown.

I'm not trying to crush anyone's hopes and dreams, but the competition in trad publishing is fierce, and it's better to know what we're up against.

Of course, today you can make a living with self-publishing, but it's like going in business: you are responsible for everything. You take all the risks.

Basically, looking this over, yes, your friends are steering you basically right. If anyone is telling anyone that a fiction author doesn't need a finished manuscript to attract an agent, they're giving you information that's at least 30 years out of date. It went out of date when I was a kid.

Between trad and indie, it's estimated that there are an average of 3 million new titles put out every year. Whether one chooses trad or indie, you will be shouldering most of the responsibility and the lions share of the work. In indie that just means it's a Tuesday. Being indie does offer something trad does not: creative control, which is what got me in as an indie and not the trad author my mom wanted me to be.

The answer to how marketing and promotion work when it comes to approaching agents and publishers is: it depends on the genre, and it depends on if its fiction or non-fiction. Different rules and nuances depending on each. So, my best advise is to go seek out some of the Writer's Digest Market Guides, some author-guides on your specific genre, and learn how your specific demographic works. Good luck and godspeed!

 

[Prince of Spires]

Recently came across this video:

Which gives an inside look of someone who's recently sold a fantasy novel.

 

[Emrick Norr]

That great video posted by the Prince of Spires is full of essential information on today's publishing business. Everyone should watch it and take notes.

It also confirms what Lowan said about indie publishing: thanks to ebooks, it's now possible.

We also learn that editors stopped reading slush in the 90s and it's now the agent who do it. They're an extra layer between the writer and the editor. However, Brandon points out that if you can get an agent, there is a good chance you'll get published.