Am I doing it wrong?

[Helleaven]

Hi everyone.

I've been working on my first novel since last summer. Almost everything is ready about the plot, the past of the characters, the world-building and history writing is nearly finished (though it develops everyday). But there are problems which I don't know how to solve, or I don't know if they're problems or not...

Brace yourselves, the questions are coming.

1-) The story starts in a very important day for the protagonist.The day he turns seventeen and officially becomes an adult. In their culture, becoming an adult is a big thing and they celebrate it and make some rituals for their gods. That day lasts 144 pages until it is finallyover. Is this wrong or bad? I don't really think that it's boring but I suppose some people wouldn't like it.

2-) I am telling the story from the perspective of my protagonist. In the first volume, there won't be any other POV chapters. Starting from the second volume I am planning to add different POV's. From start to the end of the first volume, there is only one POV, is this wrong or bad?

3-) I see some writers who can finish writing tons of pages just in one day. I am a bit slow, sometimes I don't write anything for days. Sometimes I write only a few sentences, sometimes a few pages. But I can't write 20-30 page a day; is there something wrong with me?

4-) Although I'm writing slowly, the first book is soon to be completed. I had to divide the first volume into two shorter volumes because it was going to be too long. If I had written as I had planned in the beggining, the book would be nearly 750 pages long. So I made a few changes in the story, divided the first book into two volumes. What I want to ask is this: Would a book which consists of 750 pages repulse the readers? What do you think about the lenght of the books you've read?

I would be glad if you can help me.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Steerpike]

With respect to issues 1 and 2, it all comes down to how well you've written it. You can write an entire novel that takes place over the course of a single day if it is sufficiently engaging to keep the reader's interest. The same goes for POV shifts. Those are just fine, if handled well, and you can certainly make the second volume in a series different from the first.

With respect to 3, the important thing is to finish the work. Everyone writes at their own pace. My own view is that if you really want to be a productive, professional writer, you should set a minimum word count each day (say 1000 words) and meet it no matter whether you feel like writing or not, or whether you are inspired or not.

I regularly read books that are 1000 pages or more, so that word count won't bother me. A publisher might very well balk at a first novel of that length, unless it is very good indeed.

 

[Devor]

I think 1 is a red flag. Over a hundred pages about a day? Even if it's good it might be setting a weird pace and expectation for your readers about the rest of your book. But red flag means stop, look closer, potential problem, not that it cannot be done.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

If you are having concerns about the 144 page length of your protagonist's birthday then there's probably a reason. I haven't read it but instinct tells me you should try to cut it down the the pieces that offer the most drama and insight. Cut anything that isn't absolutely necessary or that doesn't drive conflict.

As far as POV is concerned, switching can be done but it can also be tricky. Be careful that the transitions are smooth & make logical sense. If the switch of view takes the reader out of your story that's a bad thing. Really good POV switches can enhance the story.

As far as how much you write I completely agree with SP. Set a goal for daily word count that is attainable and stick to it no matter what. 500 words is probably the bare minimum I'd recommend. If you wait to be inspired to sit down and write, well then you're not really a writer. Some may argue that point but it's the hard truth. A writer writes.... everyday.... No matter what. You will be surprised by what you can do when you stick to goals. When you look back, you'll find that some of your best work came on days you didn't feel like writing but you did it anyway. Some of those days that you thought your writing was so good that you were the next Dickens... well it turns out to be crap.

Set a goal & stick to it. Discipline yourself.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Concerning the 700+ page length, it depends. I wouldn't be scared off from reading a book of that length (do it all the time). However, an agent or publisher may. For a first time published author, a publisher is taking a gamble on you. The more it cost to print your novel, the more risk is involved. The larger the book, the more it costs.

Normally a 1st time fantasy author should stick to around 100-120k words. It is also advisable to write your first as a stand alone book. Now, this book can have the potential for a sequel but you'll need an ending that can do dual duty (tie up volume one and bridge to volume 2). Again, this is all about business risk. If you pitch your story as the first book of three then the publisher will think they have to print three volumes... 3 times the risk. If you sell it as a stand alone with potential for sequels, we that's only good business. Normal risk for potentially higher reward.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I'm most concerned with the first day length. I can only assume that I'd be reading pages upon pages about the character's inner thoughts and the rituals. To me, that's not a terribly interesting story. I opened a story with young man graduating from an academy, performing military maneuvers with his company, and watching a ceremony knighting several young men who graduated with him.

When I began, it was seven pages long, and now it is about two. That was mainly influenced by members of a critique group who didn't want to sit through descriptions of people and events that served no purpose but introducing the MC.

So I would caution you to carefully look at what you have written and analyze whether it has accomplished the goals you want to accomplish.

While there is nothing fundamentally wrong with a 700+ page book, or a day that spans an entire novel, execution is key and pacing will be your challenge.

When writing fantasy, we all spend weeks or months creating a world and the characters in it. We map out places and pantheons of gods and detail customs, magic systems, etc.

The challenge is writing the story without feeling the need to enter every brilliant thing we invented into it for the sake of a reader who might be bored to tears by all the wonderful things we've created.

If you are struggling to find a balance, I can't express enough how much help I've received from other people on this site, and I would encourage you to find a critique partner who is not only another writer, but loves reading and reads a variety of things. A second opinion (or third or fourth) is invaluable when you are beginning your writing journey, and can often help on the things you personally can't see.

If you want someone to read through some of your novel and give some opinions, I am willing to offer my assistance, and you can PM me if you feel that is something which might help. I work closely now with a few people I have great respect for and who challenge me as an author and support me as an artist.

Best wishes. Your work should be written to please you first, and a reader second.

 

[Robert Donnell]

The problem isn't your day length, it is what moves the story forward. Can you sum up what happens in a single paragraph? Then add enough back in to set the stage. For example have you ever had a big day? An example a wedding, funeral, graduation, The next day what do you remember? You remember being in a hurry, having to sit through some boring stuff, fear, elation, the weight of the world off you shoulders, the stress washing away.

 

[Will]

C'mon now. You have to seriously shorten that one day being 144 pages long thing. You could kill two birds with one stone here. Just shorten that and you'll be able to get a nice first volume of less thas 600 pages. Works a lot better. It actually pains me to think how slow this day must move along, no offence.

 

[BeigePalladin]

First, as a preface, I'm going to say something in regards to the general topic title: are you doing something wrong? No, as there's no "right" or "wrong" way to write - it may be badly executed or unordered, but nothing written is ever wrong as there are no rules to creatiity (there are rules to grammer, but I count that under badly-executed). If what you'e done reads well and is enjoyable, then no matter how it was done, it will still read well and be enjoyable.

and remeber, there's nothing wrong with you either, you lil' hypocondriac

1) (also quoting will as I think what he said also needs to be assessed)

1-) The story starts in a very important day for the protagonist.The day he turns seventeen and officially becomes an adult. In their culture, becoming an adult is a big thing and they celebrate it and make some rituals for their gods. That day lasts 144 pages until it is finallyover. Is this wrong or bad? I don't really think that it's boring but I suppose some people wouldn't like it.

C'mon now. You have to seriously shorten that one day being 144 pages long thing. You could kill two birds with one stone here. Just shorten that and you'll be able to get a nice first volume of less thas 600 pages. Works a lot better. It actually pains me to think how slow this day must move along, no offence.

Well, that could actually depend - how much happens on that one day? is the concern a lot of plot-centric events happen on one day and thats the concern, or does the festival thing alone take the 144 pages? if the first then thats fine, as its still several events and without reading it I can't say for sure wether its dragged out.
If it is one single event/plot point then I would recomend taking a very, very, very close look at what you have and seeing if you need all of it, and how long it feels like it takes - remeber even though you may know every nuance of your characters culture, many of your readers won't want to know much. Even if it means dropping every ritual you spent hours deciding on, it might be better executed to only spend time on rituals that are actually relevant to the plot
though you saying its 144 pages when its "finnally" over bothers me.

@ Will: but you don't know how much happens in that one single day, so you can't outright say one day can't take 144 days. Many full length novels take one day and are longer than 144 pages - waiting to find out content before telling someone what they have to do might be a bit more effective.

2-) I am telling the story from the perspective of my protagonist. In the first volume, there won't be any other POV chapters. Starting from the second volume I am planning to add different POV's. From start to the end of the first volume, there is only one POV, is this wrong or bad?

thats fine and fine so long as we're changing view points for a reason, rather than just as a gimmick. also, again, there's no way of writing thats "wrong"

3-) I see some writers who can finish writing tons of pages just in one day. I am a bit slow, sometimes I don't write anything for days. Sometimes I write only a few sentences, sometimes a few pages. But I can't write 20-30 page a day; is there something wrong with me?

again, no - everyone writes at different rates, so don't let it get to you. You sound like your faster than me XD. being fast dosen't neccecarily mean your good, nor does being slow, it just means you can come up with ideas quickly.

4-) Although I'm writing slowly, the first book is soon to be completed. I had to divide the first volume into two shorter volumes because it was going to be too long. If I had written as I had planned in the beggining, the book would be nearly 750 pages long. So I made a few changes in the story, divided the first book into two volumes. What I want to ask is this: Would a book which consists of 750 pages repulse the readers? What do you think about the lenght of the books you've read?

a 750 page book is fine (there are many, many, many books out there of the same length or greater that are still read). as said before though, it might repulse the publisher, as being unpublished they're taking a gamble with you and a 700 page book is quite expensive to publish. I'd advise splitting the two when you first go to a publisher ust because 350 is something asy and confortable to publish, and if that succeeds releasing them combined together later on

hope this helps

 

[Claire]

You've already gotten some great advice, I just wanted to add one thing. I read or heard this somewhere a while back and it has stuck with me - start deep in the scene. Really take a look at what you want to accomplish to move the plot forward with each scene, and start as deeply as you can in each one. A simple example would be something like this - you imagine your character on this important day. He wakes up, does things to get ready, goes to the festival. That kind of stuff could eat up a good deal of pages. But is it really necessary to moving the plot forward? What if you start later, when there is some real action? When he's already at the festival? Unless the description of his morning routine is somehow relevant, you can probably start deeper - later in the scene. And that's just an example - it may not be specifically relevant to what you're writing. But that idea - start deep - has been helpful to me as I write.

 

[Helleaven]

Thank you so much. They're indeed very valuable advices and I will surely make good use of them. I'm glad that I found this site with so many helpful people, so thanks again.

I want to shed light on the first day of the protagonist. (birthday)

In first chapter, the reader learns what is he doing for living, his family, and a strange man's visitation (which is a friend of the protagonist's father)

In third chapter, the ritual starts. But in the middle of the ritual he finds himself in another city in which a bloody war's going on. Protagonist is only watching and can't interfere, like a ghost. In this chapter, the reader learns what these books will be about. The war scenes and lots of drama happens there.

In fourth chapter he wakes up in the temple which the ritual took place and no one is aware of what he had been through. So they're arguing about these visions.

In seventh chapter the festival night begins but the Lord himself interrupts it with his own presence. And he hasn't been in town amongst his people for years. Why did he come?

In eighth chapter the story goes on with the following days.

Every chapter has it's own minor plots relevant to the main plot. So it's not just the protagonists inner thoughts, or the pages and pages long descriptions. Almost everytime something happens in that day.

I will look again whether it becomes boring or dull, I will use your advices, but I just wanted to clear that out.

The word quota method is definitely a perfect idea! I will start it as soon as possible!

As for the publisher's point of view, yeah probably they would not publish it because it's a great risk indeed. And worse, in Turkiye, the audience of fantasy genre is too few (except worldwide best-sellers such as A Song of Ice and Fire, LotR or Harry Potter) I didn't start writing to be published (though it's surely a dream of mine, but not the reason to write), I started because I have that feeling in me keeps shouting "Thou Shalt Write!". And I obey. The only thing I want from writing is to be read, even if I distrubute them without a charge.

And except my girlfriend, no one has ever read my manuscript so far, and unlike me she's not a reader of fantasy genre, like many in my country

Anyway, all the anwers are definitely priceless, I'll bear them in mind!

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Hi everyone.

Hi

[q1-) The story starts in a very important day for the protagonist.The day he turns seventeen and officially becomes an adult. In their culture, becoming an adult is a big thing and they celebrate it and make some rituals for their gods. That day lasts 144 pages until it is finallyover. Is this wrong or bad? I don't really think that it's boring but I suppose some people wouldn't like it.

As long as it's interesting, one day covering 144 pages of a book isn't a problem. However, it can be problematic making such a short span of time be interesting, because people (even characters) need some time to cool down and come to terms with things that have happened. This leads me to believe that you might have a lot of stuff in that 144 pages that's potentially interesting but might not actually be critical to the arc of the character or the story.

2-) I am telling the story from the perspective of my protagonist. In the first volume, there won't be any other POV chapters. Starting from the second volume I am planning to add different POV's. From start to the end of the first volume, there is only one POV, is this wrong or bad?

There's nothing wrong with this. In the Chalion series, each of the three books has a different POV character; book 2's POV char is a peripheral character from book 1, for example. However, if you've written a really strong, likable character for your first book, you might be shooting yourself in the foot by switching to someone else who readers might not care as much about.

3-) I see some writers who can finish writing tons of pages just in one day. I am a bit slow, sometimes I don't write anything for days. Sometimes I write only a few sentences, sometimes a few pages. But I can't write 20-30 page a day; is there something wrong with me?

No. Some writers are fast; some are slow. George R. R. Martin is hugely successful and notoriously slow. Other successful writers churn out multiple books per year.

4-) Although I'm writing slowly, the first book is soon to be completed. I had to divide the first volume into two shorter volumes because it was going to be too long. If I had written as I had planned in the beggining, the book would be nearly 750 pages long. So I made a few changes in the story, divided the first book into two volumes. What I want to ask is this: Would a book which consists of 750 pages repulse the readers? What do you think about the lenght of the books you've read?

Some people don't like big giant weighty tomes; they seem too imposing. Publishers especially aren't fond of them because they're more expensive to print and you can't really charge more. So if they split a book into multiple parts, they can sell more copies overall. Charles Stross publicly lamented that this happened to his Merchant Princes series (he'd intended it to be 3 books, and the publisher split each book in half to make it 6 books).

I don't personally care how long a book is, as long as it's good. I'll read a thousand-page book if it's a good book. I'll skip a hundred-page book if it's boring. My criterion is entertainment per unit time; I read the same speed no matter how long the book is, so as long as your book is entertaining enough per minute of time spent reading, the length of the book is irrelevant.

 

[BeigePalladin]

see, thats fine for 144 pages because its eight chapters and something happens in all 8, rather than it being 144 spent on one thing its better to look at things in terms of how long each piece of plot takes in pages than how lpong each chunk of pyhsical time takes in pages because the latter dosen't actually matter

and post your manuscript here if you want it to be read

 

[Helleaven]

Benjamin Clayborne:

Thanks for the advices. Like others, your opinions are very important too. After I read all these posts in this thread, I feel more confidental and more aware of what I should do

BeigePalladin:

I would definitely want it. Because, like Caiged Maiden have said, other's opinions are very important.

Alas, I don't think that no one here knows Turkish If my English was better, I would surely translate it and post here, but I sadly know that it is not possible

 

[BeigePalladin]

ah, right, national borders...

always forget those.