Ancient Egyptians - Cultural Origin, genetics, etc.

[Shockley]

Another point, to add to the more scientific genetic discussion.

They've done some fairly extensive genetic work on members of the 18th Dynasty (which would include Tutankhamun, the four Thutmosises, Hatsheptsut, Nefertiti, Akhenaten, etc.) had an approximate 90% genetic commonality with modern Egyptians.

Someone with Steerpike's expertise could probably clarify exactly what this means, but it's a statistical fact.

 

[Jabrosky]

Another point, to add to the more scientific genetic discussion.

They've done some fairly extensive genetic work on members of the 18th Dynasty (which would include Tutankhamun, the four Thutmosises, Hatsheptsut, Nefertiti, Akhenaten, etc.) had an approximate 90% genetic commonality with modern Egyptians.

Someone with Steerpike's expertise could probably clarify exactly what this means, but it's a statistical fact.

Please find a link for this claim.

Herodotus says that, at one point, the Ethiopians ruled over Egypt. He says that, at some point in recent history, Ethiopians had invaded and taken over Egypt and that eighteen different Ethiopians had been pharaoh during that time. This is consistent with what we know of the 25th Dynasty (which I mentioned in the other thread). But here’s the point I’m taking from it: By that period, Egypt had been ruled by hundreds of Pharaohs. Hundreds of individuals had held the throne, and Herodotus takes a moment to say that eighteen of these men were Ethiopians, based on the term that he had just revised to refer explicitly to black Africans.

If there were hundreds of black Pharaohs, Herodotus would have taken that moment to refer to the eighteen-or-so non-Ethiopians who had ruled. Manetho, a historian from Egypt, confirms the uniqueness of the Kushite Pharaohs.

What makes you think his idea of "Ethiopians" were necessarily synonymous with the modern construct of Black people?

 

[Shockley]

I found it off a blog. On searching it up, looks like they got it from wikipedia. Obviously, that's my bad. 100% my bad.

That said, it did inspire me to do some research on the matter and I found this article:

King Tut and half of European men share DNA - Deborah Braconnier - medicalxpress.com - RichardDawkins.net

It seems that the truth of the matter is the opposite of what I maintained, but for different reasons.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't know the names of the studies Shockley is referring to, but there was a scientist from Cairo University on PBS making the point that genetic studies showed ancient egyptians were genetically related to modern egyptians. The gist of the PBS story was the same. Would have to track down the studies to see the methodology however.

 

[Steerpike]

I found it off a blog. On searching it up, looks like they got it from wikipedia. Obviously, that's my bad. 100% my bad.

That said, it did inspire me to do some research on the matter and I found this article:

King Tut and half of European men share DNA - Deborah Braconnier - medicalxpress.com - RichardDawkins.net

It seems that the truth of the matter is the opposite of what I maintained, but for different reasons.

The usual comeback to that study is that it is not scientific, and then to discount the study out of hand. I haven't seen much in the way of serious commentary by those who don't agree with the results.

Of course, it conflicts with the studies that link modern-day Egyptians to ancient Egyptians, and shows just how murky the whole issue is. There is evidence from all directions in the literature, which seems to me to support the claims of a mixed, diverse group.

 

[Shockley]

What makes you think his idea of "Ethiopians" were necessarily synonymous with the modern construct of Black people?

Herodotus was talking about black people when he made this distinction. I think I clarified it in my original post, but Herodotus actually went to what we would see as modern-day Ethiopia. This is why he established the distinction between what he called the Cissians (who would have been indistinguishable from Persians, a known ethnic group to the Greeks) and what he called the Ethiopians (setting the distinction).

 

[Shockley]

There was a reason why I wanted to avoid venturing personally into the realm of science (it's something I'm not good at) and made my points using history. I'll stick to that from here on out.

 

[Steerpike]

There was a reason why I wanted to avoid venturing personally into the realm of science (it's something I'm not good at) and made my points using history. I'll stick to that from here on out.

I think historical sources are important, as are contemporary depictions, and the culture's own assessment to the extent we can find it. One problem with a lot of the scientific approach is that the researchers have blinders on, thinking their evidence should serve to the exclusion of all other evidence.

 

[grahamguitarman]

To be honest I'm suspicious of any argument that is based mostly or entirely on genetics. But then I have a deep mistrust of scientific 'truth' anyway (no I'm not a creationist, I just mistrust scientists).

However, you don't need to be a scientist to see that the majority of Egyptian sculptures depict people with African facial features. Look at their murals and the majority also show reddish brown skin tones, yes there are other skin tones depicted, but the majority are red-brown.

Only an idiot would try to deny the fact that Egyptians were not white, when they explicitly depicted themselves as brown. I'm not referring to anyone here when I talk about idiots by the way, before anyone starts to get offended!

Edit: when I say 'African facial features' I'm talking in general terms, ie. the faces are of a more African type as opposed to a European type of face.

 

[Steerpike]

Only an idiot would try to deny the fact that Egyptians were not white, when they explicitly depicted themselves as brown. I'm not referring to anyone here when I talk about idiots by the way, before anyone starts to get offended!

Yes, white seems preposterous. But, at the same time, they seem to distinguish themselves from darker peoples in those same works of art.

 

[Shockley]

Indeed. Even the European Pharaohs (the Ptolemys) stopped being white after the fifth generation.

 

[Mindfire]

To be honest I'm suspicious of any argument that is based mostly or entirely on genetics. But then I have a deep mistrust of scientific 'truth' anyway (no I'm not a creationist, I just mistrust scientists)

Loving the stigma you attach to creationism. Fantastic, that. -_- Sarcasm, btw. There are Christians on this forum too, you know. Anyway, glad we all agree on the "not white" bit. We're making progress. Might even come to a consensus if we keep it up.

 

[Steerpike]

Loving the stigma you attach to creationism. Fantastic, that. -_- Sarcasm, btw. There are Christians on this forum too, you know.

Oh...do we need another thread?

*ducking*

Actually, I can sum up in two sentences:

1) it is not scientific and so should not be taught in science class;

2) it is important from a socio-religious standpoint and should be allowed to be taught in sociology, philosophy, theology classes and the like.

 

[Mindfire]

Oh...do we need another thread?

*ducking*

Actually, I can sum up in two sentences:

1) it is not scientific and so should not be taught in science class;

2) it is important from a socio-religious standpoint and should be allowed to be taught in sociology, philosophy, theology classes and the like.

Doesn't that essentially say to anyone who does believe in intelligent design that their beliefs aren't valid? It's a tacit insult. And yeah that might require another thread.

 

[Steerpike]

Doesn't that essentially say to anyone who does believe in intelligent design that their beliefs aren't valid? It's a tacit insult. And yeah that might require another thread.

Only if you believe scientific knowledge is the only valid source of knowledge. I don't happen to believe that, so no. I don't find the work of philosophers to be invalid simply because it isn't scientific.

If it isn't science, then by definition it doesn't belong in science class, just like it wouldn't belong in a math class.

 

[Jabrosky]

That said, it did inspire me to do some research on the matter and I found this article:

King Tut and half of European men share DNA - Deborah Braconnier - medicalxpress.com - RichardDawkins.net

Uh, this is the iGENEA issue I addressed near the beginning of this thread.

Herodotus was talking about black people when he made this distinction. I think I clarified it in my original post, but Herodotus actually went to what we would see as modern-day Ethiopia. This is why he established the distinction between what he called the Cissians (who would have been indistinguishable from Persians, a known ethnic group to the Greeks) and what he called the Ethiopians (setting the distinction).

Does he use physical descriptors to make the distinction between these groups of people though?

Wait a minute, this is the same Herodotus who explicitly described Egyptians as having "black [or dark] skin and woolly hair", isn't it? I find it ironic that you cite him of all people to prove that Egyptians were generally non-Black when he is the Greek writer most commonly cited in favor of a Black Egypt.

Again, I don't really advocate that Egyptians were ever purely Black. Like Mindfire and Steerpike, I maintain that they incorporated people of many different appearances into their civilization. However, you seem intent on generalizing Egyptians as non-Black, as if the population was homogeneously "Semitic" from Elephantine to the Delta. That is simply not true.

 

[Shockley]

Does he use physical descriptors to make the distinction between these groups of people though?

That depends on which group of people you're talking about. The Asiatic Ethiopians/African Ethiopians or Egyptians/African Ethiopians?

Wait a minute, this is the same Herodotus who explicitly described Egyptians as having "black [or dark] skin and woolly hair", isn't it? I find it ironic that you cite him of all people to prove that Egyptians were generally non-Black when he is the Greek writer most commonly cited in favor of a Black Egypt.

He only does this by reference, which I can clarify:

When traveling near Colchis, he encounters people of that place. He describes them as having 'dark skin and woolly hair' and assumes, as a result, that the Colchians are of Egyptian extraction. He gives a little fictional history, then states that the Colchians know of Egypt but that Egyptians don't know of Colchis.

This might seem like an argument for black characteristics, except that we know quite a bit about the Colchians: They were a Caucasian people (living in the Caucasus mountains, even) and they're the forerunners of modern-day Georgians.

However, you seem intent on generalizing Egyptians as non-Black, as if the population was homogeneously "Semitic" from Elephantine to the Delta. That is simply not true.

That's a straw man, first and foremost, and not what I've been advocating at all. I merely took the stand that the average Egyptian (and the majority of the Pharaohs) would have been people of Semitic extraction and appearance. I made two statements to this in previous posts:

"We should even expect a few black-looking Pharaohs — many of the wives of the Pharaohs did come from Ethiopia (members of the 24th Dynasty married the forerunners of the 25th Dynasty). But that matters little — while the British monarchs might be predominately German, the average Brit is still English, Scottish or Welsh. In that sense, the average Egyptian was of a dark, Semitic stock. "

"Egypt was, as well, an important trade center. We know that the fortress of Elephantine (which is in southern Egypt) was built by a Jewish tribe allied with the Pharaohs. We know that Assyrians, Greeks, Phoenicians, Persians, etc. made up the ruling class (the standard theory is that, while being descended from Ptolemy, the majority of Cleopatra’s blood would have been of Persian extraction). "

I never claimed that the Egyptians were homogeneously anything - just that the majority of them would have been Semitic.

 

[Steerpike]

I think we can all agree that this point that the ancient Egyptians were most likely an alien race, come to earth to teach less advanced peoples. The wide ranging genetic and anthropological evidence was planted to obscure this fact.

 

[Mindfire]

I think we can all agree that this point that the ancient Egyptians were most likely an alien race, come to earth to teach less advanced peoples. The wide ranging genetic and anthropological evidence was planted to obscure this fact.

You can't be serious.

In any case, Shockley, I don't think the Egyptians were "Semitic". From what I've seen they tended to differentiate between themselves and Semitic or Asiatic types like the Hyksos just as they differentiated between themselves and the Kushites. In fact, I think they distanced themselves even farther from Asiatics than they did from the Nubians. And the facial features depicted in Egyptian art seem quite African.

 

[Steerpike]

Look, there's even a link for it:

Egyptian Alien Gods Building Pyramids