Are the elves really that boring ?

[wintercub]

The idea is turning the typical idea of elves on its head. As I said before, I like this angle.

However, you need reasons other than "years of struggle turned them cruel". After all, as a race they won by surviving.

I think you'll be better served if you have factions within the race competing for vanishing resources, the few remaining habitable areas, kidnapping mates because isolation has weakened the gene pool.... Things like that. Give valid arguments for the change of an entire race & their in-fighting.

Also, consider how long ago did these wars take place? How have the different factions changed from one another due to separation? There's a ton of different directions you could go with this (cultural differences, language dialects, physical appearance, etc.). Hell if you wanted to, you could have them initially appear like different races altogether and slowly reveal that they were once all elves of the same ilk. Tons of ways to approach it... Just be creative & have fun doing it.

well thank you so much for your great sugestions, i guess i'll start writing right away !

 

[SeverinR]

Nature tends to drive all animals to do what must be done to increase species survivability.

Even good natured humanoids would tend to collect women, protect them so they can produce many offspring, a man's value would be reflected by how many: Wives, children he can produce and take care of. It all returns to the basics of survival.
Basically more barbaric, but with reason. Harems would be common, the strongest man would have the women and common man would probably not be allowed to even get close to women.(inferior offspring)
Proving how manly a man was would encourage fights, winner would take some or all of the losers women. Men would be kept to serve the overlord and guard his property. Women would become babysitters and cooks, the lesser women would be more in the role of servant, but would not be allowed to around men. The prefered women would be baby bearers and wet nurse.
Fighting to steal or defend what each other has, so the world would break down into chaos.

 

[wintercub]

Nature tends to drive all animals to do what must be done to increase species survivability.

Even good natured humanoids would tend to collect women, protect them so they can produce many offspring, a man's value would be reflected by how many: Wives, children he can produce and take care of. It all returns to the basics of survival.
Basically more barbaric, but with reason. Harems would be common, the strongest man would have the women and common man would probably not be allowed to even get close to women.(inferior offspring)
Proving how manly a man was would encourage fights, winner would take some or all of the losers women. Men would be kept to serve the overlord and guard his property. Women would become babysitters and cooks, the lesser women would be more in the role of servant, but would not be allowed to around men. The prefered women would be baby bearers and wet nurse.
Fighting to steal or defend what each other has, so the world would break down into chaos.

that's basically the essence of the elven society i have in mind

 

[Sheilawisz]

I have a friend in Madrid who loves elves and has written some elves-based stories, and his elves are powerful, large creatures with a sadistic nature that despise humans and other species... He imagined elves not as perfect and beautiful, but as vicious warriors and very deadly monsters that I would never want to meet somewhere.

You can imagine your own elves to be completely unlike the Tolkien-style elves and others, it's great fun to create something new and original even if you still want to call them elves =)

I am moving this thread to the World Building forum.

 

[wintercub]

it's great fun to create something new and original even if you still want to call them elves =) .

Exactly

 

[BWFoster78]

One question I have is:

If elves are completely different than the elves we typically see, why don't you just call them something else?

That way, you don't have to try to overcome built in conceptions about them.

 

[wintercub]

One question I have is:

If elves are completely different than the elves we typically see, why don't you just call them something else?

That way, you don't have to try to overcome built in conceptions about them.

true but if i gave them another name they would still have the features of the elves, and in my opinion it would just sound like a cheap copy.

i think the creation of a new and credible main race is a bit to much for me, i prefer taking the classic model that people are already familiarized with and twist it into something totally new and different.

but anyway thanks for the suggestion

 

[Steerpike]

If they have the features of elves, then they aren't "completely" different, though. I think, as BWFoster said, if they are completely different from elves, there isn't much reason to call them elves. I suppose it could be an association made by the characters - say if someone from our world journeyed there, saw this race, and the closest word their mind could come up with was elves, even though it didn't really fit.

 

[shangrila]

I don't think you'd have to call them something different. You could keep some of the cliches to give a link or, a better way in my opinion, have the stereotypical elves being what they used to be, i.e. prideful, decadent, arrogant, learned, etc. In that way they're still "elves", just ones that have gone through the end of their world, more or less.

 

[It's a Squirrel...Moose?]

I suppose the question is this: why elves? Your idea is a semi-typical despotian world where the surviving races (in this case elves) have reverted to tribalism in order to survive. I feel tha you are using elves simply because you want t buck the usual trend of elves being haunt and perfect.

This by itself is not a bad thing. But, the dying world theme is a well trodden ground - I would be much more interested in a story that is all about how the elves became barbarians, because at the moment it strikes me that if you replaced elves with humans the story would ATM lose nothing.

This is the problem with elves, that nine times out of ten they could be replaced by humanity - in fact they might as well be seen as a form of humanity that we strive to be. Elves have been overdone to death in recent years.... But that s just m personal opinion

 

[wintercub]

This is the problem with elves, that nine times out of ten they could be replaced by humanity - in fact they might as well be seen as a form of humanity that we strive to be. Elves have been overdone to death in recent years.... But that s just m personal opinion

well the thing is i really wanted to write something without mankind as the main people. The human nature isn't kind and good, most of them don't even care about nature or preserving life like elves do. They just have a thirst for power and will do anything to get it. I just think i can't degrade a race that is already degraded.

Elves are probably one of the most famous mythological creatures and there is so much lore about them and so many ways to use it but most writers just over use the classical model that tolkien created.
I want to do something different, give a new perspective to this race.

 

[wintercub]

I don't think you'd have to call them something different. You could keep some of the cliches to give a link or, a better way in my opinion, have the stereotypical elves being what they used to be, i.e. prideful, decadent, arrogant, learned, etc. In that way they're still "elves", just ones that have gone through the end of their world, more or less.

yes i think it makes more sense

 

[It's a Squirrel...Moose?]

Humans are only as 'degraded' as the writer makes them. Writers seemed obsessed with focusing on the purely negative aspects of humanity - the greed, the inequity, etc - completely ignoring the other aspects of our existence and the positive implications of our society - the forward thinking, the advancements. In most modern writing - elves have come to represent a facet of humanity - one not blighted by the preconceived issues within our society.

However, in reaction to the Tolkein-esque vision of elfdom; with it's focus on singular acts of greatness and symbolism with the natural world - authors are in essence trying to humanize the elves. We have seen this in the rise of 'dark' elves of the Drow and Warhammer dark elves - where the perfection and arrogance of tolkien created (which was in turn, a rebranding of ancient folklore) into something dark, cruel and evil. The issue is now, however, that this reaction to a trope has become in itself a trope - the dark elves represent humanity's darker side, just as the 'high' elves represent our desires and lust for physical and societial perfection.

My issue is not so much the idea - it's proven itself to be an effective setting for stories (one can see the endless success of Fallout as an example of the appeal of a post-apoc human society reverting to a form of tribalism) - but I see your use of elves as simply another use of humanity. I personally haven't read a story where elves exist as the sole inheriators of a dying world - but I have read plenty of stories about humanity in a similar situation - and the generic 'go-to' elvish trope at the moment is to offset their physical and societal confidence with a deep-seated issue (often in the form of breeding) - often with dire results for the unity of their culture.

This is my issue with elves - that in most cases they could be replaced with humans and nothing would change. This has been seen with the development of 'high-humanity' tropes within the fiction community - humans that have gained near 'elf' life characteristics often through the adoption of a hardline religious dogma. You speak of not wanting to 'degrade that which is already degraded' - I would argue that is precisely what you are doing, albeit using elves in the situation instead.

 

[SeverinR]

that's basically the essence of the elven society i have in mind

I think having the reasoning behind their actions, helps to make it more real. Rather then just a Mad Max chaotic/violent world for no reason.

Basically we see the opposite right now. Life is fairly safe, don't need a large family to survive so:
number of kids in a family is lower, women have more freedom, people focus more on relaxation and hobbies rather then
fighting to keep what they have.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I suppose the question is this: why elves? Your idea is a semi-typical despotian world where the surviving races (in this case elves) have reverted to tribalism in order to survive. I feel tha you are using elves simply because you want t buck the usual trend of elves being haunt and perfect.

This by itself is not a bad thing. But, the dying world theme is a well trodden ground - I would be much more interested in a story that is all about how the elves became barbarians, because at the moment it strikes me that if you replaced elves with humans the story would ATM lose nothing.

This is the problem with elves, that nine times out of ten they could be replaced by humanity - in fact they might as well be seen as a form of humanity that we strive to be. Elves have been overdone to death in recent years.... But that s just m personal opinion

Trope... Schmope.

There's a reason the dying world theme is well-trodden ground. It's the ultimate ticking clock. Also, his choice of elves, purely to turn then on there head is a perfectly sound reason to choose them over another race that wouldn't contrast as greatly with their descent into barbarism.

It doesn't really matter if everyone likes elves (or dwarves, or unicorns, or pirates), or if people don't want to read about a desperate & dying world. There's always going to be a section of people that won't care for what you're writing (even within the same genre). It doesn't matter.

If you write a story that you'd enjoy reading, there are bound to be others out there, just like you, who will enjoy it also. Furthermore, what's the point of writing anything for someone else? You won't enjoy the creative process as much & perhaps you won't even finish it because you'll lose interest. This doesn't mean you shouldn't be conscious of your reader, you should. But that is in terms of the writing craft and how you spin the tale.

Furthermore, if you do call them something else do it or a reason. They have to be different enough to justify the name, otherwise you're wasting the reader's time while they figure out "hey those are elves".

You can't say that just replacing elves with humans have the same effect for your story. It's your world and no one else's. If Elves in your world are the Tolkein-esque variety to begin then their regression into barbarism is more dramatic. We all know that humans are quite capable of barbarism... But elves?

 

[wintercub]

There's a reason the dying world theme is well-trodden ground. It's the ultimate ticking clock. Also, his choice of elves, purely to turn then on there head is a perfectly sound reason to choose them over another race that wouldn't contrast as greatly with their descent into barbarism.

It doesn't really matter if everyone likes elves (or dwarves, or unicorns, or pirates), or if people don't want to read about a desperate & dying world. There's always going to be a section of people that won't care for what you're writing (even within the same genre). It doesn't matter.

If you write a story that you'd enjoy reading, there are bound to be others out there, just like you, who will enjoy it also. Furthermore, what's the point of writing anything for someone else? You won't enjoy the creative process as much & perhaps you won't even finish it because you'll lose interest. This doesn't mean you shouldn't be conscious of your reader, you should. But that is in terms of the writing craft and how you spin the tale.

Furthermore, if you do call them something else do it or a reason. They have to be different enough to justify the name, otherwise you're wasting the reader's time while they figure out "hey those are elves".

wise words indeed

 

[Ireth]

We all know that humans are quite capable of barbarism... But elves?

Just look at the history of Feanor and his family in the Silmarillion, by Tolkien himself. Those guys butchered entire cities of their own kind, no less than three times, for the sake of some holy jewels that Morgoth stole from them. They were cursed by the Lord of the Dead after the first Kinslaying, but still went on to fight and kill other elves twice more. Of the original eight elves who took the Oath to reclaim the stolen jewels, six were killed in battle, one committed suicide, and the last presumably died of grief and regret.

 

[wintercub]

Just look at the history of Feanor and his family in the Silmarillion, by Tolkien himself. Those guys butchered entire cities of their own kind, no less than three times, for the sake of some holy jewels that Morgoth stole from them. They were cursed by the Lord of the Dead after the first Kinslaying, but still went on to fight and kill other elves twice more. Of the original eight elves who took the Oath to reclaim the stolen jewels, six were killed in battle, one committed suicide, and the last presumably died of grief and regret.

I wouldn't consider that a barbaric act, feanor did what he needed to do to reach middle earth and stop morgoth. the telari didn't even care about the other elven clans and the dark lord. they could have just helped feanor crossing the seas. And also the "holy jewels" were not just some common artifacts, they were one of the most powerful creations made by the elves that could threat all Arda if in the wrong hands. feanor simply did what he thought it was the right thing to do, to stop morgoth at all cost. despite the slaughter he was still a noble warlord and a great chieftain, not a bloodthirsty mindless beast.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Just look at the history of Feanor and his family in the Silmarillion, by Tolkien himself. Those guys butchered entire cities of their own kind, no less than three times, for the sake of some holy jewels that Morgoth stole from them. They were cursed by the Lord of the Dead after the first Kinslaying, but still went on to fight and kill other elves twice more. Of the original eight elves who took the Oath to reclaim the stolen jewels, six were killed in battle, one committed suicide, and the last presumably died of grief and regret.

My point is focused towards a general impression of the archetype... What most people think of when they conjure an image of a fantasy genre elf.

 

[Ireth]

I wouldn't consider that a barbaric act, feanor did what he needed to do to reach middle earth and stop morgoth. the telari didn't even care about the other elven clans and the dark lord. they could have just helped feanor crossing the seas. And also the "holy jewels" were not just some common artifacts, they were one of the most powerful creations made by the elves that could threat all Arda if in the wrong hands. feanor simply did what he thought it was the right thing to do, to stop morgoth at all cost. despite the slaughter he was still a noble warlord and a great chieftain, not a bloodthirsty mindless beast.

In the defense of the Teleri, the Feanorians invaded their coast by force and slaughtered all who resisted rather than doing the polite thing and saying "hey, can be borrow a bunch of your ships to find the Dark Lord and get back the Silmarils? Thanks, guys." The Teleri just defended themselves against a threat and were killed.

My point is focused towards a general impression of the archetype... What most people think of when they conjure an image of a fantasy genre elf.

Indeed. But, for many people, Tolkien's elves ARE the archetype -- this illustrates that they're not all as noble as the majority of them seem to be. Even the wise and much-revered Galadriel began as a proud warrior princess of Feanor's kindred, wanting to stake out a realm for herself in Middle-earth. It wasn't until the later Ages that she mellowed out and became the symbol of grace and beauty evident in LOTR.