Ask me about Jewish Monsters

[Archon of Cringe]

I have been developing a professional pitch with my mentor for an Urban Fantasy Teenage Detective Story using Jewish and Kabbalistic monsters as a base. I have been doing a lot of research, so I may be able to help—things like Sephirot, Qliphot, Lilith, angels and Shedim, Dybbuks, etc. I also know things about Jewish stories and history, so ask. I am learning new things at a frequent pace.

 

[Ozonequeen]

What kind of questions are you looking for? I haven't studied too much into Jewish mythology. I know some stuffy, the legends around Lilith are fascinating to me. I love the whole notion that she and Adam fought over who got to be on top and she was like peace, I'm outta here. I was mentioning to my parents recently that in Jewish folklore, it's that said that Solomon had a ring that allowed him to control demons, is that accurate? They seemed baffled by this, as we are Catholic. In a recent, occult discussion, I heard it was Asmodeus alone that helped him build the temple. In some Islamic folklore the ring was said to control the Djinn. What do you know about any of this? I love mythology!

 

[Rexenm]

I always wonder if the two trinities, are a taboo topic. Also, I thought that maybe in a sci-fi way, the creation story could be some kind of sign.

 

[Archon of Cringe]

I always wonder if the two trinities, are a taboo topic. Also, I thought that maybe in a sci-fi way, the creation story could be some kind of sign.

What are you referring to regarding Two Trinities? By Creation Story, you mean Ma'aesh Breishis (the story of the creation of the world in seven days that ends with the Sin of Eden)?

 

[BearBear]

Lilith's my favorite. What do you know of her, who's your favorite?

 

[pmmg]

A ring to control asmodeus does not sound like something that would survive metaphysical or theological scrutiny. Only in myth would i expect it to exist.

 

[Queshire]

What, you don't think Big G couldn't give a mortal king control over 72 demons?

 

[Archon of Cringe]

Lilith's my favorite. What do you know of her, who's your favorite?

Quite a bit, actually. What makes Jewish Monsters like Liliith and Shedim so interesting and aggravating is the fact that there are many different interpretations of them that even contradict each other.

Lilith is not mentioned anywhere in the original Tanakh. She may have been originally based on a Mesopotamian god (I believe Pazuzu). Still, she came to life in the Medieval period when a Midrash was written about her being the first wife of Adam, who left Gan Eden when their relationship soured. Adam sent angels to bring her back, but she refused, and the angels threatened to take the lives of 100 of her children. Things escalated, and eventually, it got to the point where Lilith said she would kill 100 children a year for the children the angels took, but only if they lacked medallions of the three angels who stopped her, Senoi, Sansenoi, and Sammangelof. There is also an interpretation where she goes back to Gan Eden only to find Eve has taken her place and it infuriates her. She is also sometimes depicted as a lamia and being behind the original sin, but the being behind the role of the snake is choked up to multiple identities. In general, she is depicted like a succubus.

Now, she plays a larger role in Kabbalah, but it gets more confusing and contradicts some of the information in the Midrash. There are apparently multiple Liliths, possibly a species with male and female entities. There is also an older and younger Lilith; the younger is married to Ashmedai (Asmodeus) and the other Samael (the closest Judaism has to a Satan). They actually fight each other regarding their wives every year. The greater Lilith is also a demon who oversees one of the Qliphot (I think it's the tenth, but I need to get back to you). She descends as a beautiful woman with red hair, seduces a man, and then accuses him before god. She also bears the power of fire that she was born in. There is more, but I don't have enough information at the moment. I'll do more research and get back to you.

 

[Archon of Cringe]

What, you don't think Big G couldn't give a mortal king control over 72 demons?

A ring to control asmodeus does not sound like something that would survive metaphysical or theological scrutiny. Only in myth would i expect it to exist.

I have to get back to you guys on Solomonic Magic. It's an area I want to get into, but I haven't fully researched it yet to give you an informed opinion. I don't want to waste your time. However, my conclusion is that you're not supposed to rely on demons when you have god helping you.

I am going to add this about demons, particularly Shedim. Demons are an in-between of humans and angels. They are like humans in 3 ways and angels in 3 ways. They eat like us, procreate like us, and die like us. Like angels, they have wings, fly to the ends of the earth (commentary suggests this may mean they have superhuman abilities letting them survive anywhere they wish), and know visions of the past and future. Tosafos suggests this also means they look more like animals than humans (there is also information suggesting there are vampires, but I need to investigate further).

They live in the Sitra Achra, like the Upside Down from Stranger Things. Gehinomm is more of a purgatory place as Judaism doesn't have a hell like Christianity. They aren't allowed to enter our world unless through certain conditions, like a dark place that has an open space like the shade between two palm trees. If they violate these conditions, they will burst. Some demons cause suffering like stomach aches and sickness, but there are also demons like Ashmedai (Asmodeus) who will come after you under certain conditions. In this guy's case, two many pairs. Although, if the number of pairs reaches the numerical value of the angel Michael's name, he will burst.

TL;DR Demons are like humans; controlling them is like trying to control a human. The Talmud even says a demon named "Yosef" has a mother, which sounds like human qualities if you ask me. Ashmedai has a lot of stories, too, although I haven't studied them all.

 

[pmmg]

TL;DR Demons are like humans; controlling them is like trying to control a human. The Talmud even says a demon named "Yosef" has a mother, which sounds like human qualities if you ask me. Ashmedai has a lot of stories, too, although I haven't studied them all.

Control is a subjective word. But thats not the same as i have a magic ring now a demon is my slave.

 

[pmmg]

What, you don't think Big G couldn't give a mortal king control over 72 demons?

If such were to happen, where would the power come from?

 

[Queshire]

If such were to happen, where would the power come from?

Since when did power sources matter when Big G's involved? It's not ancient aliens or something like that.

 

[BearBear]

Quite a bit, actually. What makes Jewish Monsters like Liliith and Shedim so interesting and aggravating is the fact that there are many different interpretations of them that even contradict each other.

Lilith is not mentioned anywhere in the original Tanakh. She may have been originally based on a Mesopotamian god (I believe Pazuzu). Still, she came to life in the Medieval period when a Midrash was written about her being the first wife of Adam, who left Gan Eden when their relationship soured. Adam sent angels to bring her back, but she refused, and the angels threatened to take the lives of 100 of her children. Things escalated, and eventually, it got to the point where Lilith said she would kill 100 children a year for the children the angels took, but only if they lacked medallions of the three angels who stopped her, Senoi, Sansenoi, and Sammangelof. There is also an interpretation where she goes back to Gan Eden only to find Eve has taken her place and it infuriates her. She is also sometimes depicted as a lamia and being behind the original sin, but the being behind the role of the snake is choked up to multiple identities. In general, she is depicted like a succubus.

Now, she plays a larger role in Kabbalah, but it gets more confusing and contradicts some of the information in the Midrash. There are apparently multiple Liliths, possibly a species with male and female entities. There is also an older and younger Lilith; the younger is married to Ashmedai (Asmodeus) and the other Samael (the closest Judaism has to a Satan). They actually fight each other regarding their wives every year. The greater Lilith is also a demon who oversees one of the Qliphot (I think it's the tenth, but I need to get back to you). She descends as a beautiful woman with red hair, seduces a man, and then accuses him before god. She also bears the power of fire that she was born in. There is more, but I don't have enough information at the moment. I'll do more research and get back to you.

Thanks so much for that!

There's other possibly unrelated accounts of Lilith and I don't have references though it might be new age interpretations:

She was the first wife of Adam, and they split obviously. But because she refused to be dominated by Adam. Made from dust instead of Adam's rib, so Eve was of Adam therefore could be controlled by Adam to more of a degree.

She's one of the two head demons of Lucifer (possibly his sister) one of the only two without red eyes.

She's misunderstood in that she is seen as thw reason for stillborns and miscarriages but that she's really like a midwife of healthy children and she doesn't take the healthy ones.

Also perhaps she layed with Samuel and bore all the succubi and inkubi demons.

There were several fictional shows about Lilith recently so they might have inexorably muddied the lore.

 

[Archon of Cringe]

Thanks so much for that!

There's other possibly unrelated accounts of Lilith and I don't have references though it might be new age interpretations:

She was the first wife of Adam, and they split obviously. But because she refused to be dominated by Adam. Made from dust instead of Adam's rib, so Eve was of Adam therefore could be controlled by Adam to more of a degree.

She's one of the two head demons of Lucifer (possibly his sister) one of the only two without red eyes.

She's misunderstood in that she is seen as thw reason for stillborns and miscarriages but that she's really like a midwife of healthy children and she doesn't take the healthy ones.

Also perhaps she layed with Samuel and bore all the succubi and inkubi demons.

There were several fictional shows about Lilith recently so they might have inexorably muddied the lore.

Weeeell, Lucifer is an angel, as I found he is mentioned in Isaiah, but that isn't the devil in Christianity. The phrase in English means "O fell star" and could be referring to Ishtar. I don't know much more about him in Tankah other than that he rules one of the Qliphot spheres like Lilith.

Wow, I need to review all this stuff.

 

[Archon of Cringe]

Since when did power sources matter when Big G's involved? It's not ancient aliens or something like that.

Well in the Tankah, nobody has ever had magic powers unless god was there directly performing miracles alongside them iirc. There were the Egyptian witchcraft users and significantly inferior to Moses's miracles. There was also necromancy used to speak to the dead, but that falls under witchcraft as well.

 

[Ozonequeen]

Weeeell, Lucifer is an angel, as I found he is mentioned in Isaiah, but that isn't the devil in Christianity. The phrase in English means "O fell star" and could be referring to Ishtar. I don't know much more about him in Tankah other than that he rules one of the Qliphot spheres like Lilith.

Wow, I need to review all this stuff.

In Gnostic traditions Lucifer is considered the 'light bringer' or bringer of knowledge who attempted to break Adam and Eve out of the illusion the Demiurge had created. Do I believe that? No, but I do think there is something to be said for the difference between Yahweh and the God that Jesus called Abba.
Yes, I'd also heard that Lilith was originally a Mesopotamian goddess. I enjoy listening to mythology and folklore from all cultures as well as speculation upon it. I haven't read much 'serious literature' unfortunately. Somewhere, maybe a commentary on gnostic texts, not sure, but the reason for getting a male child circumcised as early as possible is to prevent Lilith from stealing their soul (SIDS). It had something to do with the child being committed to Shekinah. Of course, I know in the scriptures it says that circumcision is a sign of the Hebrew's covenant with Yahweh.
Interesting side story, I had a friend from Turkey who told me that a newborn baby is given the symbol of the evil eye to hang on their cribs to keep away evil spirits who would steal their souls. Which of course ties back into the djinn and how Lilith is seen as a djinn in Islamic folklore. I find all of this fascinating, I enjoy this type of discussion.

 

[pmmg]

Sorry Quesh, somehow, I feel we moved at tangents to each other.

My initial comment was for Mrs. Ozonequeen, who said her Catholic parents were baffled that there might be a story about Asmodeus they did not learn. There are many very old stories in many cultures that have things that track with many of the characters that appear in the bible and in Christian lore. The Lilith story is one of these. The Catholics are not in the habit of substantiating or validating many of these stories to their faithful, while they would acknowledge such stories exist, they have their own reasons to call into question the credibility, validity, and revelational value of such stories. The story of a magic ring to control Asmodeus would certainly not be one they would think credible, and so, it would not likely come out as any official teaching of the church. If one goes to mass, it is unlikely such a story would come up.

You asked if I would believe that God could give such a power to Solomon (and by extension create a magic ring) to control demons and devils? My answer is that even if God gave Solomon a ring, the power to control devils would still come from God and not from the ring. If God did not power the ring, it would have no power at all. I would also argue over the control aspect, maybe that is not an accurate word. The idea that I could say, hey demon, I have the ring, so go do my dishes, is silly. You can write it that way in fiction if you like, but God seems to prefer faith and not magic items. In one portion of the Bible, Christ's own apostles are befuddled because, while they had been able to perform exorcisms, they came across demons they could not cast out. To which Christ said some demons can only be cast out by prayer and fasting. The indication being some demons are tougher than others, and even his own apostles could not do it. Asmodeus would almost certainly be one of those.

Lucifer was not the name of the fallen angel. It is more of a title given to the fallen angel. There are several references to Satan, which seem to have different meanings, and even Lucifer has various meanings. Satan is just 'the adversary', and when used by Christians, is almost always meant to mean the first fallen angel, but that too is not his name. The first fallen angel is often also called lucifer, which I learned meant 'bearer of light' but have since learned meant one lamenting. But...probably most everyone knows this, so...

Either way, I was offering my initial answer to Ozonequeen to explain why it might seem baffling to her parents. The thread has grown since then...

 

[Archon of Cringe]

On the subject of Satan, in Tanakh, there is no mention of him because he is not the same as the fallen angel of Christianity. Rather, the satan is an accuser who incites humans to sin and then accuses them before god. He is the evil inclination inciting you to do bad. But ultimately, his intentions are to challenge us to do better because that's his job. He doesn't want us to listen to him.

The only time so far that I have seen Satan mentioned was a commentary in Chayei Sara where Satan informs Sarah the Matriarch that her son Issac was sacrificed by Abraham (which he wasn't for it was a test of Abraham's faith) and she died of a heart attack. Again, commentary; not the actual text.

However, there is a figure close to Satan in the Kabbalah, and his name is Samael. I am trying to find more information about him, but from what I've researched so far, he is the greater version of the accuser. He is the Qliphot opposite of Hod and opposes Michael. He is married to the older Lilith and may have

 

[pmmg]

The Tanakh and the old testament of the bible are the same. The creatures in it are the same. When you talk about the serpent in the garden, it is the same serpent in Christian belief. Satan is not a character in the old testament, or least not a character called by that name. Satan is just a word that means adversary, and there are more than one who have been called that. Even Peter was called Satan by Jesus at one point. It may be that those of Jewish Traditions and those of Christian Traditions parted on their understanding of some of these creatures, but they are not different creatures. Anything true in the Jewish faith, would also be true in the Christian faith.

 

[BearBear]

The Tanakh and the old testament of the bible are the same. The creatures in it are the same. When you talk about the serpent in the garden, it is the same serpent in Christian belief. Satan is not a character in the old testament, or least not a character called by that name. Satan is just a word that means adversary, and there are more than one who have been called that. Even Peter was called Satan by Jesus at one point. It may be that those of Jewish Traditions and those of Christian Traditions parted on their understanding of some of these creatures, but they are not different creatures. Anything true in the Jewish faith, would also be true in the Christian faith.

I grew up Catholic and trust me, a lot of people were called Satan and Devil. Even if they only miscounted exact change.