Bending the rules

[WooHooMan]

So I must justify the existence of every non-white character? Justify why they're not the 'default' white? No, I'm gonna make them that way just because. Because, thing is, that's how it is in real life. Does the person behind the counter at starbucks need to justify themselves not being white? Does the bus-driver need to justify being a woman? No. People are women because they're women, and people are black because they're black. So it is in my writing.

Ok, like I said: do whatever you want. I don't care that much.
I just have my own little bizarre issues with the virtues of "representation and diversity" and I was using your post to get going on that rant.

And the moment you realise that, that there doesn't need to be a reason for these underrepresented characters to exist, everything becomes so much simpler, and your world becomes so much more colourful.

I take some exception to this closing line: I feel like you're accusing me of having a "colorless" world. I've written a good number of underrepresented characters but I usually base characters' races on the story's setting. And they're are variables that lead me to decide gender.

Maybe I'm just being defensive. I'm sure you didn't mean any kind of offense.

 

[Gryphos]

I take some exception to this closing line: I feel like you're accusing me of having a "colorless" world. I've written a good number of underrepresented characters but I usually base characters' races on the story's setting. And they're are variables that lead me to decide gender.

Maybe I'm just being defensive. I'm sure you didn't mean any kind of offense.

I'm sorry if I sounded accusatory. I did not mean to suggest that your stories lack diversity or anything like that. I was just making a general comment on how abandoning the notion that anything differing from the white male default must have a reason will open up new horizons to any writer.

 

[SeverinR]

Last time I checked,
The consensus was the people in the know were looking for good books with prominent female characters. Some even suggested LGBT might open some doors too.

Personally, I don't think anyone needs to justify any race of human or any color skinned non-human race. The "common" fantasy story is usually Euro oriented, so Euro races are common. But if you write Oriental or African based fantasy then those would be the norm. That isn't to say that other human races don't belong, they are just a minority, small minority or large minority would be up to the author's setting. I would also offer, if the city/town you write about has a transportation system,(ship trade, over land trade route) then more "foreigners" would be expected. I would also say, more crime in those cities too, not because of minorities but because of the desperate people searching for a better life, using skills to keep themselves alive in other then legal ways.

 

[Nimue]

I feel like this must have been posted before, but maybe it hasn't: the Medieval POC (people of color) blog.

It's a resource blog that documents the many, many examples of non-white people in European art history, and sometimes just history. It's a tumblr, so there is some back-and-forth and dumb anonymous question rebuttal, but it has some fantastic examples of POC presence in Early Modern, Medieval, and even pre-Medieval Europe. Really makes you reconsider the "historically accurate!" argument for 100% white medieval settings. Basically, as long as people have been trading and sailing and traveling, there has been diversity in any given setting. And while the average person wouldn't have been black or Asian or Middle-Eastern--since when are fantasy protagonists average people?

 

[WooHooMan]

I'm sorry if I sounded accusatory. I did not mean to suggest that your stories lack diversity or anything like that. I was just making a general comment on how abandoning the notion that anything differing from the white male default must have a reason will open up new horizons to any writer.

I can agree that there are benefits to writing characters of differing races and genders but I also think that there should be a reason for a character to be of a specific race (white or otherwise) or gender. Usually, I find that setting is the deciding factor...

The "common" fantasy story is usually Euro oriented, so Euro races are common. But if you write Oriental or African based fantasy then those would be the norm. That isn't to say that other human races don't belong, they are just a minority, small minority or large minority would be up to the author's setting. I would also offer, if the city/town you write about has a transportation system,(ship trade, over land trade route) then more "foreigners" would be expected.

This is what I'm talking about.

The story I got going now has a setting based on North African trade cities (Casablanca, Alexandria, etc.) so the main character is black while the white characters are foreigners or from foreign families. The cast, as a whole, is representative of the setting's population. The cast is also primarily women since the story deals with a woman-dominated career field.

If I was writing a story set in Ireland or a setting based on Ireland, I'd make the main character white since Ireland is mostly white. Sure, the character could be a black but it makes more sense to go with white given the setting.

 

[BWFoster78]

Nimue,

As you know, diversity isn't one of my hot button topics, but you might be proud of me: I added a POC (Hispanic is POC, right?) in to my WIP today. (Truthfully, that's not really that rare for me; my niece is Brazilian/American, and if I ever get around to that alien invasion series bouncing around in my head, I plan to very loosely base one of the protagonists on her.)

I needed to cast the director of the Superhero Institute (haven't come up with an appropriate moniker for the organization yet; that's a placeholder.). It's a minor role but may expand if I work this into a series. I think the natural choice to create conflict is to have the director work against the protagonist, but, sometimes, I think it's better to go against expectations.

Anyway, so I'm looking at Seventh Sanctum (for minor characters, I generate a list of 50 names and pull a first name and a last name that I like) and decided that Carlos Guerra sounded right. With the exception of characters that I create to honor people that I know, I don't think I ever start with a character by saying, "I want him/her to be this race." Instead, I just go with what speaks to me. (One of the things that I really like about writing is that, while I tend to be very analytical overall, I like giving myself over to pure spontaneous creativity.)

Now that I read back over this post, I'm have no idea what the point is ...

Oh well.

Thanks.

Brian

 

[Nimue]

Well, I think it's cool! Since you're in the brainstorming phase, it's really the best time to consider different identities for your characters. See who they could be! And you're working with a modern setting, so you've really got no limits in terms of ethnic and cultural backgrounds.

I do think that going with "what feels right" can end up with white-by-default syndrome, but if you consciously consider different images and, hey, names for a character and then see how you feel, it can lead in different directions.

 

[DeathtoTrite]

So I must justify the existence of every non-white character? Justify why they're not the 'default' white? No, I'm gonna make them that way just because. Because, thing is, that's how it is in real life. Does the person behind the counter at starbucks need to justify themselves not being white? Does the bus-driver need to justify being a woman? No. People are women because they're women, and people are black because they're black. So it is in my writing. And the moment you realise that, that there doesn't need to be a reason for these underrepresented characters to exist, everything becomes so much simpler, and your world becomes so much more colourful.

People are black because Europeans engaged in the slave trade (assuming you're not living in Africa). The Anglo-Saxons in the Byzantine Empire in the 11th century where there because of William the Conqueror. People of different ethnic origins do NOT just pop up. This includes if you have a say, a Mesoamerican setting and a white person pops up.

If your setting is a metropolitan trading hub-- like the silk road or Istanbul in the 16th century-- then having many different races is more normal-- Turks in Istanbul at times number less than 50% of all inhabitants.

My characters skin color is an important part of who they are-- two have a very dark complexion because they are from a nomadic race that moved into a white area. Another is somewhat paler because, though she is from the same nomadic race, her family has intermingled with the more white locals. Just changing it because you can shows that skin color has no culture attached to it-- which could be an interesting concept in its own right, if that's what you were going for.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I really hate that diversity in middle ages tumblr. It basically takes whatever pictures supports its argument while ignoring the vast amounts of literature and artwork which do not. This makes up a tiny minority of the population in your average poor, backwards European country.

 

[Nimue]

The point of the tumblr isn't to say that POC were in the majority or absolutely everywhere. It's that they existed in Europe, and that saying there were no non-white people living in Medieval Europe is not historically accurate. You never see these images in other places, and that's why I find that blog to be so valuable. Yes, of course the majority of Northern Europe was white, nobody is claiming otherwise. But artwork with black or other POC figures has been historically diminished, miscategorized in museums, and even painted over in the past because of the attitudes of the 19th and 20th centuries.

I'm not sure that we disagree, except that there was more travel between populations than you seem to be giving credit for. There were black people in England prior to the beginning of the Caribbean slave trade, I can show you evidence of that. But if your reaction to this part of the historical record is defensiveness and not curiosity, I can't help you much.

 

[DeathtoTrite]

I'm not sure that we disagree, except that there was more travel between populations than you seem to be giving credit for. There were black people in England prior to the beginning of the Caribbean slave trade, I can show you evidence of that. But if your reaction to this part of the historical record is defensiveness and not curiosity, I can't help you much.

Its more that the tumblr seems to imply "There were minorities in Western Europe, therefore you must include them as a main character"

"Because you wouldn't want to be historically inaccurate." is still a perfectly valid response to including few/none minorities, especially in extremely rural areas-- the Mani Peninsula is a great example of just how isolated some areas were. In Mani, a peninsula in Southern Greece, they worshiped the Hellenic Pantheon until the 11th century. And they were only a few hundred miles from Constantinople, then the center of the world and capital of the byzantine empire. For hundreds of years, this place was THAT isolated.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be defensive about. Some bones recently discovered in Ireland come from Axum in the 9th century. I'm saying that, for the most part, Europe was a backwards, isolated, xenophobic and overwhelmingly rural. This isn't even so much a writing point as a historical one. And it is simply that Europe was incredibly homogeneous, with your average peasants not going more than 10 miles from their place of birth.

 

[Nimue]

I'm getting some defensiveness from "I really hate that blog." Why? It's literally just showing images of the Middle Ages that we don't often see from other channels.

"There were minorities in Western Europe, therefore you must include them as a main character"

I've followed that tumblr for more than a year; I can tell you that's not the message at all. It's not even a writing blog.

"Because you wouldn't want to be historically inaccurate."

The tagline is a tongue-in-cheek response to all the people saying that including any POC at all in medieval fiction and usually fantasy would be "historically inaccurate". The message of the blog is about combating the "there were only white people!" attitude, not enforcing quotas or something.

And it is simply that Europe was incredibly homogeneous, with your average peasants not going more than 10 miles from their place of birth.

Sure. Historically. Meanwhile, fantasy protagonists are crossing kingdoms and visiting cities and royal courts, and it's still "unrealistic" for them to meet people who aren't white. Fantasy isn't confined by history--and even if it were, there were POC in European history.

If you want to have an all-white cast, you can do that. But it's your choice--it hasn't been decided for you by history, leaving you helpless to write otherwise. History is far richer and more varied than most people give it credit for.

 

[DeathtoTrite]

Okay, I think we're pretty much just disagreeing on semantics at this point. I just don't like the vibe I get from some people who feel compelled to include a POC for no other reason than diversity, especially when it has no impact besides them being POC.

 

[Gryphos]

Okay, I think we're pretty much just disagreeing on semantics at this point. I just don't like the vibe I get from some people who feel compelled to include a POC for no other reason than diversity, especially when it has no impact besides them being POC.

I don't like the vibe I get from some people who feel compelled to include white people for no other reason than uniformity, especially when it has no impact besides them being white.

See how silly that sounds?

 

[BWFoster78]

I do think that going with "what feels right" can end up with white-by-default syndrome, but if you consciously consider different images and, hey, names for a character and then see how you feel, it can lead in different directions.

I don't necessarily disagree, and I have no desire to enter into the type of discussion these kinds of statements tend to lead to. But (oh, c'mon, you knew that "but" was coming ) I did have two thoughts when I read this:

1. For me, the characters that "feel right" to me, I think, are mostly based on what I'm used to. Not what I'm used to reading; what I'm used to seeing/dealing with on a daily basis.

We live in a global world ( - love that phrase; laugh every time I get to use it), and I don't think that most people are surrounded by a completely homogeneous environment. It feels natural for me to include someone of Hispanic background because I know/work with a lot of people that fit that description.

2. My outlining is going really well. It seems to work something like this:

I started by assuming a certain number of chapters based on my typical average word count per chapter and my desired word count for the book. I divided the chapters into Acts and put certain signposts at certain chapters throughout - for example, Chapter 8 is the first Door of No Return.

Before I ever start a book, I have a good idea of who the protagonist is, what the significant situation is, what the first Door is, and in general, the first several chapters.

So I started outlining chapters 1 and 2. Going into 3, which I had clear in my mind, I'm like, "What happens after 3?" No idea. The story basically disappeared into the foggy abyss that I couldn't penetrate.

My response: I took out this black box and input what I knew thus far and where I needed the story to go. Waited a little while. Got the response telling me what happens in Chapters 4 through 7.

Now this black box containing my imagination seems like something given to me by space aliens. I know that, inside, there has to be some logical technology driving it, but that technology seems so advanced that it might as well be magic. I'm afraid that, if I try to examine it too closely, I'll break it.

All that to say: I can't explain how my process works. If I need to input something, like a POC, it seems to accommodate the request pretty well. I live in mortal fear, however, that one day I'm going to type in my inputs and nothing is going to come out.

I'm really hesitant, therefore, to try to advise anyone on what their creative process should look like. Best I can say is, "This is what I do. If it helps, great. If not, sorry."

I, and this is just me, would be hesitant to tell someone that they need to do something specific like change their method of choosing characters.

 

[DeathtoTrite]

I don't like the vibe I get from some people who feel compelled to include white people for no other reason than uniformity, especially when it has no impact besides them being white.

See how silly that sounds?

Seriously? I'm sorry, but that's not what I said at all. I find creating a western european feudal style world were everyone is white, and then throwing in one POC with little/no logic is stupid. I would find it equally stupid if a white person showed up in the middle of a book with a setting based on Uyghurstan.

Have you ever seen Robin Hood, with Alan Rickman? Great movie, and Azeem was a really neat addition. I really enjoyed having Azeem there.

What I wouldn't like is if Azeem could be white and nothing would change. If you've seen the movie, you know that's impossible; Azeem being a Muslim in England and having a different skin tone had interesting consequences for him(I still laugh at the scene he is trying to find east but can't in the terrible English weather).

I would like to point out, that I don't write about white people. Of my four POV characters, one is white. Of the two dozen or so characters at one court, two are white. This was not a conscious decision on my part. I happened to have read a lot of books about the Mongol and Ottoman Empires, and wanted to see them in fantasy equivalents.

 

[Nimue]

I think you're talking about tokenism here, which is absolutely not what I'm advocating. Don't just switch someone's skin tone if you're not going to go through the process of thinking about how that affects them as a character--unless this is a fantasy world where race has no implication. It's not what MedievalPOC is about, either. It focuses on cultural intersection, and often there will be a brief biography of a figure in a painting if there's enough information, about their lives and you can see the way that race and culture influenced them.

I just think that the approach of "POC characters can only appear in designated settings" can be damaging when so many modern readers have experienced life as a minority. It also brings up echoes of an unpleasant "they should stay where they belong" line of thinking. You're shutting down a whole range of stories that readers might identify with. The way that modern society has come about makes images and stories of POC in a dominant European setting particularly valuable.

 

[DeathtoTrite]

I think you're talking about tokenism here, which is absolutely not what I'm advocating. Don't just switch someone's skin tone if you're not going to go through the process of thinking about how that affects them as a character--unless this is a fantasy world where race has no implication. It's not what MedievalPOC is about, either. It focuses on cultural intersection, and often there will be a brief biography of a figure in a painting if there's enough information, about their lives and you can see the way that race and culture influenced them.

I just think that the approach of "POC characters can only appear in designated settings" can be damaging when so many modern readers have experienced life as a minority. It also brings up echoes of an unpleasant "they should stay where they belong" line of thinking. You're shutting down a whole range of stories that readers might identify with. The way that modern society has come about makes images and stories of POC in a dominant European setting particularly valuable.

Yeah, that's exactly my point. A character's race, gender, etc. should be part of their identity-- not a defining characteristic-- but a part. And I'm fine with including diverse characters, my only caveat is essentially to make sure you maintain suspension of disbelief with their motivations for being where they are.

Another thing you should realize is the way I write-- I go into incredibly detailed world-building with how different cultures exist, have intermingled, migrated, etc. so in this hyper-detailed context I would expect more of an explanation for just about anything.

 

[WooHooMan]

We live in a global world ( - love that phrase; laugh every time I get to use it), and I don't think that most people are surrounded by a completely homogeneous environment. It feels natural for me to include someone of Hispanic background because I know/work with a lot of people that fit that description.

Dude, you didn't sign your post. I didn't know if it was you who posted it or not.

But seriously: in more modern or cosmopolitan, having a minority/PoC character because "it feels right" is as good a reason as any. I think we're mostly talking about settings based on historical periods which tend to be more racially homogeneous.

Yeah, that's exactly my point. A character's race, gender, etc. should be part of their identity-- not a defining characteristic-- but a part. And I'm fine with including diverse characters, my only caveat is essentially to make sure you maintain suspension of disbelief with their motivations for being where they are.

A part: not a defining characteristic but also not a negligible aspect of their appearance.

 

[BWFoster78]

Dude, you didn't sign your post. I didn't know if it was you who posted it or not.

But seriously: in more modern or cosmopolitan, having a minority/PoC character because "it feels right" is as good a reason as any. I think we're mostly talking about settings based on historical periods which tend to be more racially homogeneous.



A part: not a defining characteristic but also not a negligible aspect of their appearance.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't tend to think of my fantasy characters as humans at all ...

 

[ChasingSuns]

I think you're talking about tokenism here, which is absolutely not what I'm advocating. Don't just switch someone's skin tone if you're not going to go through the process of thinking about how that affects them as a character--unless this is a fantasy world where race has no implication. It's not what MedievalPOC is about, either. It focuses on cultural intersection, and often there will be a brief biography of a figure in a painting if there's enough information, about their lives and you can see the way that race and culture influenced them.

I just think that the approach of "POC characters can only appear in designated settings" can be damaging when so many modern readers have experienced life as a minority. It also brings up echoes of an unpleasant "they should stay where they belong" line of thinking. You're shutting down a whole range of stories that readers might identify with. The way that modern society has come about makes images and stories of POC in a dominant European setting particularly valuable.

Yeah it definitely bugs me when people don't give certain characteristics of a character enough thought in general. Also, I do take issue with changing a character to a POC simply for money. I don't even have a problem if it's just for the sake of diversity, but if it is obviously just to make money and the story suffers because the creator didn't think it through, then that is a huge issue for me. But that kinda goes across the board with anything really. I could say the same about my opinions on anything that is done for money and not for the story.