Black vs White symbolism

[Feo Takahari]

Disney often uses Lime Green to represent evil, and villains call everybody "Fools!" a lot.

I loosely intend to use puke green vs orange, as well as two different shades of purple, for good and evil, for the one project that uses actual visuals.

Come to think of it, Harry Potter tends to use red for good and green for evil, with the exception that Harry has green eyes and Voldemort has red eyes.

And I would definitely use pink for evil. When I think pink, I think the color of a squashed mosquito after it's already sucked some of your blood.

 

[WooHooMan]

Red and green makes sense since they're opposite each other on the color wheel.
They make as much sense as any other pair of complimentary colors anyways.

I also like the Conan movie's symbology: steel vs. flesh, sword vs. sorcery, good (more or less) vs. evil

 

[Mindfire]

As I see it, there is something to this, but the article touches on it only obliquely. The real issue is not the colors black and white and their symbolism, but rather that fantasy has the unfortunate habit of basing many of its villainous characters and races on non-"white" cultures. Some of that sort of blends into the color thing, but the real problem is that in so much of our media darker skin, hair, and eyes is equated to someone or a group of people being less virtuous than people of lighter skin, hair, and eyes. The blonde, blue-eyed hero (or innocent damsel) is a cliché for precisely this reason. And it is unquestionably true that our media unconsciously considers darker people less attractive on the average than lighter people, to the point of photoshopping people of color to give them an appearance that is thought to be more acceptable to the (White) masses. There's also a body shape/image component to this but that could be its own discussion.

But bringing this back to fantasy, how about C.S. Lewis's Calormenes? I love Lewis's work, and the unfortunate implications of him making the Evil Empire dark-skinned, vaguely Middle Eastern people are blunted somewhat by good characters like Aravis and Emeth, but those implications are still there. And while Tolkien didn't give much information about the Haradrim, Corsairs, and Easterlings in his books, the movies made the questionable choice of choosing to portray them as vaguely Middle-Eastern and Asian while keeping the good nations starkly European. And then there's the fact that pseudo-Europe has become essentially the default fantasy setting and anything outside of that is often hard to find at your local bookstore.

However, while the color symbolism of black and white may not be the root of the problem here, I think it does contribute. Because, unfortunately, we live in a culture where people of certain skin tones are referred to as colors instead of anything that makes actual sense. So while the associations of black = evil and white = good aren't the cause of the problem, they sure aren't helping. So I'd say, if for no other reason than to do something fresh, it might be beneficial to take a step away from some of our familiar color symbolism. That's my choice. I avoid using black or dark to refer to evil, not only to be conscious of things like this, but also because I find it's a nice safeguard against lazy clichés. One of the best ways to prevent yourself from creating yet another Dark Lord or Black Legion is to simply remove those words from your vocabulary. When you do that, some interesting possibilities emerge. For example, I use the color grey to symbolize evil instead of black. Grey represents ash, and therefore death and destruction. "Black-and-white" is often used as a shorthand for clarity and understanding, meaning that something is plain and obvious. Via the yin-yang symbol they also have connotations of balance and harmony. Grey therefore represents confusion, chaos, uncertainty: the perfect breeding ground for evil. Grey also represents moral apathy, doing evil not because you delight in doing evil, but simply because you don't care about the difference between good and evil at all. You're lost in the fog. You don't see black and white anymore. You live in the grey area. Grey represents an evil that is subtle, seductive, and insidious, seeking to corrupt goodness rather than outright oppose it. Grey is what happens when you let go of conscience.

 

[Tom]

Come to think of it, Harry Potter tends to use red for good and green for evil, with the exception that Harry has green eyes and Voldemort has red eyes.

Traditionally, green is the color of evil. I'm using that symbolism in Southerner, where the Faerie magic manifests as pale green fire, and Faeries themselves have green eyes and bioluminescent green skin markings.

 

[Devor]

But bringing this back to fantasy, how about C.S. Lewis's Calormenes? I love Lewis's work, and the unfortunate implications of him making the Evil Empire dark-skinned, vaguely Middle Eastern people are blunted somewhat by good characters like Aravis and Emeth, but those implications are still there. And while Tolkien didn't give much information about the Haradrim, Corsairs, and Easterlings in his books, the movies made the questionable choice of choosing to portray them as vaguely Middle-Eastern and Asian while keeping the good nations starkly European. And then there's the fact that pseudo-Europe has become essentially the default fantasy setting and anything outside of that is often hard to find at your local bookstore.

I don't know if it makes a difference to anybody, but as I understand it, the bad guy humans in those books were based deliberately on Carthage.

 

[Mindfire]

I don't know if it makes a difference to anybody, but as I understand it, the bad guy humans in those books were based deliberately on Carthage.

Really? They seemed more Moorish to me. Either way, they're brown people, so those unfortunate implications are still there.

 

[Devor]

Really? They seemed more Moorish to me. Either way, they're brown people, so those unfortunate implications are still there.

I just looked it up, and according to wikipedia the claim is more speculative than I remembered. But the argument reads pretty strong to me.

 

[X Equestris]

Going by Tolkien's intent that his world is a simply our world in the far distant past, I've seen it theorized that the Haradrim, Easterlings, etc. are the Indo-European peoples who would go on to become the ancestors of modern Europeans.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Grey also represents moral apathy

I actually use this, making demonic creatures grayscale—my own personal thought behind the symbolism being that the truly evil aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're evil because they don't believe good and evil are even a thing, so selfish actions, screwing over others, and other deplorable actions are justified as "hey, it's working out for ME."

 

[Mindfire]

I actually use this, making demonic creatures grayscale—my own personal thought behind the symbolism being that the truly evil aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're evil because they don't believe good and evil are even a thing, so selfish actions, screwing over others, and other deplorable actions are justified as "hey, it's working out for ME."

I also make use of that kind of thinking.

 

[Mindfire]

Going by Tolkien's intent that his world is a simply our world in the far distant past, I've seen it theorized that the Haradrim, Easterlings, etc. are the Indo-European peoples who would go on to become the ancestors of modern Europeans.

That may be the case. But like I said, I haven't gleaned enough from Tolkien's work to say for sure what they were meant to be. But the Jackson movies however, much as I love them, did fall headlong into some unintentional racism.

 

[Gurkhal]

That may be the case. But like I said, I haven't gleaned enough from Tolkien's work to say for sure what they were meant to be. But the Jackson movies however, much as I love them, did fall headlong into some unintentional racism.

Let's not confuse Jackson with Tolkien. Jackson for example never gets the oppertunity to show the asshole elves like Feanor's sons or the Numenorians who despite being in the farest west you can get, and white, also becomes evil as hell without help by either Morgoth or Sauron, except on the final push down into the abyss. Not mention that the, to my knowledge, white Dunlendings who fought with the Orcs for Saruman were cut etc.

Also note that Tolkien seldom or never says that these people are evil by nature, but as far as my admittedly limited reading goes, they are more misguided and rather happy to make and keep peace with Gondor and Rohan after Sauron has been defeated. To that comes Sam's monologe about the fallen Harandrim who lands next to him etc.

We shouldn't mix up "misguided" with "evil".

But neither should we forget that there is a great deal of rascism in Tolkien's works but that discussion should be as informed on the subject as possible.

 

[Mindfire]

I don't mean to conflate the two. My point was that while I didn't spot any overt racism in the books, the movies made some unfortunate decisions.

 

[Tom]

Let's not confuse Jackson with Tolkien. Jackson for example never gets the oppertunity to show the asshole elves like Feanor's sons

Oh my God, Feanor is the asshole of assholes. And so are his sons. Why does nobody ever focus on the racism found within the elvish society? Despite being all white (or what we'd think of white), there were so many inherent prejudices between the different offshoots. The Eldar looked down on the Moriquendi, for example, since they refused to go to Valinor. And High Elves considered themselves more civilized than the Sindar.

 

[WooHooMan]

So, Tolkien's possible racist implications aside...

How about fire and ice to represent good and evil? Fire has always been used as a symbol of knowledge and most people prefer warmth over coldness. And visually, the two elements are pretty distinct.

 

[Ireth]

So, Tolkien's possible racist implications aside...

How about fire and ice to represent good and evil? Fire has always been used as a symbol of knowledge and most people prefer warmth over coldness. And visually, the two elements are pretty distinct.

Something like that occurs in Celtic mythology, with the two Fae Courts of Summer and Winter (or Seelie and Unseelie). The Seelie are typically viewed as kinder to humans than the Unseelie. Though they wouldn't really call themselves "good" or "evil", just varying shades of neutral.

 

[X Equestris]

So, Tolkien's possible racist implications aside...

How about fire and ice to represent good and evil? Fire has always been used as a symbol of knowledge and most people prefer warmth over coldness. And visually, the two elements are pretty distinct.

That can work. It's done in A Song of Ice and Fire, though like with most of its symbolism, it's not entirely one sided. Of course, just like with black and white, the symbolism can cut both ways. Fire can be destructive, while ice can be considered good in certain situations.

 

[ascanius]

Hey, it's the folks Jabrosky has beef with.

I feel like the authors overplay their hand, and I don't really buy a lot of what they're posting, but I do like to complicate the dark-versus-light thing. I see darkness as fundamentally about concealment, and there's safety and security to being in the shadows while those who hate or fear you stick to the light. Conversely, light can be overwhelming, even burning, penetrating every corner and revealing every shame, denying any dignity to the victim. You can also match darkness to equality--no one is beautiful or ugly in the shadows.

(One thing I want to see someday is a stealth horror game where the threat is pure order and beauty, purging all that is disordered and wrong, and shadows are your only protection. Picture a lady in white, kneeling in a field, finding all the flowers that are the wrong color and pulling them up by the roots. Step out from the darkness of the trees, and her mouth opens impossibly wide and jagged fangs close on your head.)

That sounds like a really cool game idea, though it think a fps/rpg with stealth elements would work better. Especially if the goal is to create chaos and break the order.

Anyway back on topic. I don't buy a lot of what the author of the article mentions as others have said. One thing I noticed that I do is use colors to contrast emotions or events. Most often the color is the opposite of the normal symbolism. For instance I have one scene where one of the heroins escapes a pit of hell where she grew up, she comes out and is debating just giving up and dying. I contrast this suicidal thought with a peace and tranquility only found in the depths of night where the stars show the heartbeat of a slumbering world at peace. Ok I went a little poetic there. I agree with Feo though light/white can be just as evil.

 

[WooHooMan]

I theorize that every cliche began as a subversion of an older cliche. White/light vs. black/dark as a representation of morality is old hat regardless of which one is good and which one is evil.

I'd prefer it if writers try to come up with some other way of visually/metaphorically representing morality.

For example, Neverending Story did a neat "nothingness=evil and substance=goodness" thing. Which makes as much sense as dark and light since darkness is literally just the absence of light rather than a separate element.

 

[Laurence]

Why has nobody done shirts vs skins in fantasy yet?