cat amongst the pidgeons

[grahamguitarman]

Ok I'm taking the agent provocateur role here.

I'm hearing a lot of people making a lot of distinctions between YA & high fantasy, not all of which likes the YA scene.

Without wanting to take sides I have an alternative outlook on this, in that I actually think YA & High fantasy are equally important & valid. I love Harry Potter and other YA oriented work as much as I love Tolkien.

Consider this, The Hobbit was a 'childrens' book not High fantasy it was deliberately aimed at his own child and others the same age. It was not until the LOTR that Tolkien turned his hand to high fantasy (though the foundations for Middle Earth were firmly in place by then). Of course we now tend to forget the origins of the Hobbit and lump it in with LOTR as high fantasy, but in reality it has more in common with YA!

In fact much of what we term high fantasy evolved from literature aimed initially at children, can anyone deny the influence of C.S. Lewis and Lewis Carrol - both writing for children!

So my argument tends to be that YA is simply returning to the origins of Fantasy writing not corrupting it. Perhaps by allowing Fantasy writing to go back to its infancy from time to time we will actually see the growth of new ideas from those young concepts.

Of course many writers avoid writing for a younger audience for fear of not being taken seriously, but surely the point of Fantasy is that it isn't for taking too seriously

Personally I write to please myself and don't aim at any particular audience, my goal is to create fantastic worlds not to write for a given market, as such I'm perfectly happy to wander into YA territory if it suits the purpose of my stories.

Just thought it would be interesting to discuss the positive role of childrens literature in nurturing and evolving Fantasy writing

 

[Kelise]

I think sometimes, whether we like it or not, the two intermingle. As I've said elsewhere before, Trudi Canavan writes her books with an adult audience in mind... yet her books are sold by her publisher under YA.

I recently reviewed a book called Daughter of Smoke and Bone (utterly fantastic, by the way) and it's sold as YA, yet I don't see many - if any - differences in it that other fantasy has. I wouldn't have picked it as YA if my review information didn't wave around in my face going 'THIS IS YA!'

So that's another thing to bear in mind. We may write it. Publishers may decide to take it elsewhere. Whether we like it or not, we may find ourselves printed for YA anyhow.

 

[mythique890]

I've heard there's a stigma in writing YA, but I'm not sure why. I think (and could be wrong) at as of right now, YA fantasy writers tend to make more money than authors writing high fantasy. That's not to say that they're better writers, but YA, being more accessible, reaches a whole group that high fantasy has never been able to capture: the casual reader.

Consider also that the two most lucrative book series ever (not fantasy series, book series) have both been YA: Harry Potter (number one best-selling book series of all time) and Twilight (number twenty best-selling book series of all time). And that's just in the past decade. Most of the books listed on the series list targeted children. Here's my source. Make sure you're looking at series and not single books.

 

[Mistresselysia]

It's funny, because having been involved in a few writing groups that are not fantasy orientated and being an English teacher by profession, the overwhelming attitude of people who aren't fantasy fans is that ALL fantasy is for kids, regardless of its subgenre. I remember sitting in the staffroom once discussing Pratchett with another member of my department (also a dear friend), and another member of my department was sitting at the table, getting increasingly annoyed with us. Eventually, she stood up, and I kid you not, said: 'if you're going to talk about this fantasy nonsense, I'm leaving. Why you have to talk about this childish rubbish, I don't know; why can't you talk about proper literature?'. This led to a big discussion about what constitutes as 'proper literature', and hoo boy, fantasy is not it. Seriously, the general consensus was so negative, you would have thought fantasy had kicked their dogs and spat on their grannies.

As for YA vs High - being a teacher (11-16 year olds) means I read a lot of YA. I have to, simply to keep up with what the kids are reading and so I can make appropriate recommendations when kids ask me what I think they should read. And, in truth, YA is far more vibrant and willing to take risks than High fantasy, which in my experience is dominated by a few big names who on the whole seem to be writing bloated, largely self indulgent tomes. I actually turned my back on high fantasy a few years ago (any recommendations that may buck me out of my high fantasy apathy are definitely welcome, though!), and have been enjoying worlds created by the likes of Neil Gaiman, Clive Barker (his dark fantasy and children's books are absolutely fantastic - he is not just a horror writer at all) and, of course, the wonderful Terry Pratchett (although he hardly counts - I've been a fan of his for 23 years now!). My bookshelf is still groaning under the weight of my McCafferys, Jordans and Eddings's, but I have become very, very jaded by these kinds of books, and so I can kind of see why the public and the publishing houses are turning their backs on high fantasy. It really needs to re-invent itself - make itself relevant and (dare I say it) sexy once more - trim away the fat and the pomp and the splendour, and create a leaner, meaner high fantasy beast that doesn't involve the reader needing an encyclopedic memory for names to be able to enjoy it. I know I will probably get shouted out of the room for voicing these opinions in a fantasy forum, and I am by no means saying I hate high fantasy (I'd rather read it than any of the popular crap that fills the shelves in Asda!), just that I feel like I've supped a little too often from the High fantasy tankard, and it's all begun to taste the same over the years - it's time to jazz up the palate with something lighter and zingy, so to speak...

Purely for the record, I play D&D and have done for 12 years - and that has stayed fresh and fun for me (so much that I still write and read dreadful D&D stories - my secret shame...), so it isn't so much the conventions or the settings or the characters that have jaded me as such - just that the same themes seem to be explored in the same stylistic way over and over again. But, then again, like I said before, it's been a while since I took in a high fantasy series into my heart, simply because I've been expecting the same old same old all over again - if anyone thinks they can show me the folly of my ways, please do!

(NB: I apologise if none of this makes sense, but the kids have had me up half the night and I am currently just on that sparkling, slightly manic edge of exhaustion right now...)

 

[mythique890]

Mistresselysia, I'll be brave and admit I'm with you. All I read for years was high fantasy, and after a while it all felt the same. I just can't get into it anymore. I recently tried to listen to (I don't have time to sit and read, so I listen to audiobooks while doing mindless things) Anathem by Neal Stephenson, which is on some "greatest fantasy/sci fi" lists. I hated it. I was bored out of my mind. All I could think was, Will you stop talking about the buildings and get on with the story!!

I'm not giving up though, I've got The Name of the Wind on my iPod right now. I've heard it's amazing, so I'm going to give it a try (right after I finish listening to Artemis Fowl). And back in my high fantasy days I read all of The Wheel of Time, but have yet to read any of the ones by Sanderson. I'm going to finish those one day... I just need to have the time to read them all over again, it's been so long. And since I love Sanderson, I'm also planning on reading The Way of Kings.

 

[Emeria]

Although people categorise them as different, I see little difference between "high fantasy" and YA stuff. Both can be excellent. I grew up reading CS Lewis, Madeline L'Engle and stories with talking animals (namely some of the Redwall books). Are these any better or worse than Tolkien's LotR books? No, not in my opinion. They may be different, but one of the things that makes them good books is the quality of writing. Personally, I'd rather read a good YA fantasy novel than read cookie-cutter high fantasy.

Because I have younger siblings and I've spent a lot of my life making up stories for them, I tend towards writing YA stuff. As long as it's done well (and avoids the cliche romance plots), it easily has the potential to be as good as high fantasy, if not better. For example, Harry Potter is enjoyable by kids, but there are also things that older people reading the stories will enjoy (I love how she names her characters, which is something I can pick up on because I've studied Latin and read a bit of mythology). Same thing with Narnia. Narnia was a bedtime story when we were young, but since then, I've gone back and reread them and it still amazes me that the Queen's transformation into a snake always creeps me out (found in chapter 12 of The Silver Chair, for anyone who is curious). Even with Madeline L'Engle, whose stories I read in elementary school, I've enjoyed going back and re-reading for similar reasons.

 

[grahamguitarman]

I tried reading the wheel of time but after the third novel I was soo bored I binned the lot! I can't even be bothered to read Eddings these days either, yet I can always read Tolkien, not matter how jaded I get.

At the moment I'm reading the Hobbit to my 7 year old daughter and she loves it, which was what made me start thinking about the whole YA / High fantasy thing - the Hobbit really is a kids book and yet can still be read as High fantasy.

Harry potter is the same - its a kids book, but can still be read as an adult fantasy too (even the earlier ones)

as for the teacher who hated fantasy, thats her problem - I'd rather read Tolkien than Hemmingway LOL

 

[Lord Darkstorm]

And, in truth, YA is far more vibrant and willing to take risks than High fantasy, which in my experience is dominated by a few big names who on the whole seem to be writing bloated, largely self indulgent tomes.

Excactly. My biggest complaint with both fantasy and scifi writing in the past decade has been far more leniecny to put in things none of us would ever be allowed to. Shame we can't get publishers to put the self indulgent pieces in italics so we know how far down to skip...

There is a audio interview with Ben Bova and Orson Scott Card I listened to a while ago that discussed writing and they had a few comments on what kids are forced to read in school. The 'classics' that serve to convince kids that reading is dull, boring, and only needed to get a passing grade in a class. I've had people tell me that I can't possibly know what good writing is without having read the classics. I guess I'll never know what good writing is then.

I look at YA as the latest buzzword for books. Barely defined, but half the aspiring writers want to write YA now. When I was fifteen I picked up Star Rangers by Andre Norton from the school library. It was over a decade older than me, and I loved it. From there I read everything they had in the scifi fantasy section of the library (about fifteen books I think). None of they were labeled YA, but most of them did qualify. If we were to be honest, there are probably far more books that could be classified as YA than currently are. Only now that Harry Potter made YA the thing to achieve for sucess, do we now have to classify things as in or out.

I'll just write my stories the way I intend and let others sort it out. Maybe if writers concentrated more on writing good stories, we'd have more books to rival Harry Potter, instead of a bunch of imitators.

 

[Mistresselysia]

There is a audio interview with Ben Bova and Orson Scott Card I listened to a while ago that discussed writing and they had a few comments on what kids are forced to read in school. The 'classics' that serve to convince kids that reading is dull, boring, and only needed to get a passing grade in a class. I've had people tell me that I can't possibly know what good writing is without having read the classics. I guess I'll never know what good writing is then.

I'm an English teacher, and OH GOD, this is so true. As much as I admire the likes of Dickens' use of language, the books themselves have absolutely no relevance to the lives of kids today, and whilst there is a part of me that thinks 'yeah? So what? Things can't always be relevant', there is an even bigger part of me thinking 'Hell, *I* think this is boring - what is a 15 year old going to think of it?!'. Luckily, I've managed to squeeze Lovecraft and Tolkien into my lessons, I got Coraline onto the curriculum list in my school and I managed to successfully argue Frankenstein as our GCSE text (YES!! No more Pride and bloody Prejudice!!), but the simple fact is the curriculum is so dominated by the so-called 'classics' that kids, who by their very nature are looking for a) something fresh and new and b) something they can relate to automatically turn off not only these books, but books in general. One of the reasons I write 'YA' (in inverted commas, because it isn't all about teenagers doing teenage things - it's actually a kind of Alice in Wonderland / Narnia style story for the modern palate) is that I am writing with my pupils in mind - a lot of them are quite excited by the fact that their teacher wants to be an author, and that alone has encouraged a few of them to read (which, after all, is what my job essentially boils down to...).

I am hoping that e-readers and Kindle will help reading be seen as something worth doing again (in my experience, the technology and sheer amount of choice out there should appeal to teenagers), and I do wonder if the Kindle list will become the nest-gen slush pile, with agents and publishers monitoring that rather than accepting personal queries. It makes sense to me - look at what is doing well on the Kindle and offer representation; that way, the writer gets a deal and the publisher doesn't have to take risks in terms of establishing an audience, because the audience is already there. But, saying that, it does depend on writers taking the risk of self-publishing rather than querying first... and I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't think I am brave enough to try!

 

[Lord Darkstorm]

It's nice to know at least one teacher is trying to teach kids to read by giving them something interesting too read. I think writing for anyone who likes the kinds of stories I write would let it fall into YA as well as adult. So far I've never needed to add a sex scene, or get into intense blood and gore. The events can happen, but some things don't have to be shown to be understood, and those to young to understand can wonder...or not.

I'll stay out of my views of self publishing, different topic, and totally different viewpoints. Still, good writing can be both YA and adult without the YA label. Most people looking for the 'YA' label are looking for that marketing difference, which I think any good writing doesn't really need.