Characters getting injured or hurt, how much is too much?

[Finchbearer]

After reading about plot armour I do agree that it can be a bit unrealistic (in the context of a fantastical setting) to have the main character/s go through hell and back over and over again and realistically still be alive just for the sake of the plot, and at worst it just comes across as melodramatic.

It makes me think of the best line I’ve ever read in a fantasy book by Susanna Clarke in Norrell and Strange; “No young lady ever had such advantages before: for she died upon the Tuesday, was raised to life in the early hours of Wednesday morning, and was married upon the Thursday; which some people thought too much excitement for one week.”

Which just makes me laugh every time I think about it, and whilst in this context is in the setting of polite 19th century British society, I think Susanna was clever enough to realise that it also has connotations of the ridiculous seen in much of fantasy literature.

Reading about plot armour also lead me to realise that I don’t actually put my characters through that much physical hardship. There are some moments, but nothing to the extent of some books I’ve read. I deal with more psychological hardship than anything else, but I still don’t put my characters through the wringer.

What do we all think of this question, how much is too much? Yes context is important, but beyond that? And do you think catering to what the current market wants to read is important when asking this question too? Should I put my characters through the wringer?

 

[Queshire]

Oh boy, I've struggled with this problem.

Considering that some of the major influences on my story include shonen anime like BLEACH, table top rpgs like D&D and video games like Final Fantasy it should go without saying that fighting is a Big Deal in my story.

Trying to avoid one good blow taking out a character resulted in having my characters avoid taking any blows. It was annoying.

My first solution was to introduce Aura as a ki-like alternative to Mana as well as a reference to HP in video games. It did not go well. Needing to hack away through someone's Aura before you can actually hurt them is pretty boring.

After that I tried giving elemental aspects to Aura. It's easy to imagine someone with Wind Aura being fast or someone with Earth Aura being slow but strong. My hope is that putting the focus on Aura empowering the body more than specifically functioning as a forcefield would make it feel more interactive. Results have been mixed.

My current attempt for a LitRPG story has been to include the idea of RPG style attributes. I like the mental image of flooding your nervous system with mana in order to channel your Dexterity or flooding your muscles with mana to channel Strength. I might do that along with either the elemental or HP version of Aura. I'm still working out of the bugs.

 

[pmmg]

I dont mind any of it so long as I dont go BS cause people are surviving bad stuff for BS reasons. Give me good reasons and I'll take it. Even if it happens 400 times.

Could Bat Man really survive all the crap he does, dodge bullets even...no. But I accept, hes special in that way, and it does not upset my sense of disbelief to see it. Could Bat Man survive a bomb to the face....No...that's BS. Big exposed chin goes through brain...its over.

So....I think, if its gonna happen, the author needs to do a good job of making it believable that it can. If they have, the characters can survive and I wont think its too much. If they haven't, I'll probably balk.

In my own writing, getting into fights is bad. Many people get killed and many lose limbs or appendages. Only one character has enough plot armor to survive it all, but I hope I have given a good enough reason why that happens. Guess we'll see if I get readers.

But, you know, stories are not really about applying absolute realism to them. They are what if's, and that usually has a rule bent somewhere. The story is really about the conflict, not the blow by blows. If the story is getting told, and its good, a lot can get overlooked. I recall, years ago, seeing ads for Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, and thinking all the flying and floating stuff looks so goofy. This cannot be a serious movie. Totally bought in when I saw it in the theater. The story was just done that well.


Oh...another one. Han shoots first. Good story telling. Greedo shoots first and misses??? Bull Sh*t. Does not matter how you splice the film.

 

[pmmg]

Trying to avoid one good blow taking out a character resulted in having my characters avoid taking any blows. It was annoying.

The way I write it, one blow taken is pretty much bad for anyone. I like it that way, cause...getting hit is bad and it makes the fights go faster. It also matches the flow of the story. Its fast and violent when it happens. There are not too many instances where someone takes a hit and it does not take them out of the fight, if not outright fatally struck.

Writing out the passages of nicks and cuts takes a lot of word space, and does not really fit the narrative for me. Even when taking non-fatal wounds in the story, it tends to affect the character permanently, or for some time after.

 

[Fyri]

One of my characters gets pretty exhausted having to deal with all this crap without plot armor. He is skilled enough to avoid getting seriously hurt (until later, but by then I have a healer around, which that may be a different kind of plot armor...), but he does sustain bad consequences from things and the weaker characters have to carry him for a while.

Honestly, I love this because serious injuries that you barely survive from or where the character (and hopefully the reader) aren't sure if they will survive--that is prime time for character growth. One of the things I get to do during this moment is show how this character really feels about himself. He is semi-conscious and half the time delirious. In narration I mention how one other character barks at him for saying "sorry" too often and mumbling about how they should have left him behind. He's even shocked and confused when they insist on carrying him. Then as he gets better, he's embarrassed for letting his suicidal depression show to these kids that he's trying to protect and be a good role model for.

I think it can be tricky. You want to put your protagonist into bad situations, but you also want to tell a story that isn't focused on injury healing. So yeah, either make a believable reason why they were able to avoid/survive a hit--preferably hinted at before the hit occurs and *preferably* not making them invincible or godlike--or lean into the injury and see what you can learn from your character and world through that. Time skips are allowed, provided they're done with tact!

I also love the line from Buffy the Vampire Slayer's musical episode: "It's do or die. Hey, I've died twice."

Injuries are hard, so what it takes to negate them should probably be equally hard/complicated. Otherwise, why should we care, why should they happen? And if you have a good "why", then use it!

 

[skip.knox]

As with most writing, the answer is simple and the execution is difficult.

How much is too much? When it loses the reader. Everything else is context.

It depends on which reader and even the life circumstances of that reader at that moment.
It depends on the skillfulness of the prose (far more than the level of the violence).
It depends on whether the strength of the rest of the story carries the reader past the stumble.
It just depends.

So, the answer is simple, but the answers are rarely useful to a particular writer for a particular situation.

 

[Mad Swede]

I've always been a believer in realistic injuries, and that's mostly owing to my own personal experiences as a soldier. For me, getting into a fight or going off to war should have consequences, both physical and mental. In my writng I try to ensure this and that means I need to think the story arcs through properly, because it takes time to heal from an injury and in the meantime the character concerned can't do some things. Events like that can and do change people in real life and so they should, I feel, change characters in stories. That can be a good step in character development, and it can also make for more interesting sub-plots.

 

[Orc Knight]

I guess for me there's just going to begetting injured or hurt and it's not likely to be glossed over much in my writing. Possibly tends to show up more in my sci-fi then the general fantasy. Though any of my fantasy writing that has access to gunpowder, it makes them even nastier. There's almost always physical scars, losses of limbs and that sort.

And not all of it's from war or fighting. At least one of my characters lost a leg to a shark during a rite to adulthood (kill a shark, butcher and cook it, keep a tooth. Only using a dagger. In a swamp.) and other sorts of accidents that can befall them. Prosthetics also vary depending on setting, if they happen at at all.

 

[Skyfarer]

I'm supposing it depends on the tone of the story, as well as the capabilities of the characters.

If you're doing something grounded, gritty, and the characters are new to fighting, any injury should probably end up mattering somewhat, or else there wouldn't really be a point to have mentioned it, no? In A Song of Ice and Fire, when X character receives a debilitating injury, it's not just a scar, a merit to their fortitude, a reminder this book happened. They can't just continue to operate as normal as though they were some kind of badass. It weakens them, they aren't as capable as they were earlier, and they can't just shrug it off. It stays as part of their character, influences their story going forward. It's not even just a physical wound, it's a psychological one as well. They're a regular human, and so are injured like regular humans. My immersion in the world would be broken if they just continued as normal.

But in a lighter, more optimistic kind of story, filled with big, powerful heroes, you can probably let them off the hook more. In the Lord of the Rings, Aragorn could be arguably said to have plot armor, as he's involved in all manner of skirmishes and large scale battles, and is never really hurt as far as I can remember. But since the tone of the story is more fantastical than realistic, and Aragorn described as much more super-human in his capabilities, I don't think anyone really minds that much. We accept that he's just that good. At the same time, Frodo is just a simple, humble hobbit, not a larger than life hero. So when Frodo is injured, it sticks. The wound he receives on Weathertop doesn't just disappear, it haunts him for the rest of the story. Same thing with Shelob's sting, it drives the next portion of the story. And the effects of the One Ring itself is given constant attention in the story. If Frodo healed up fine from those wounds, I would never believe that he's ever in danger from any future threat. If the One Ring's influence was never mentioned, it would not only be totally unbelievable that he would ever succumb to it, but also that the ring was ever a danger in the first place.

 

[LittleOwlbear]

It matters how ridiculous it gets with its injuries and near-death-experiences, and what should I say... I'm guilty of some plot armor to a certain degree too. Always have been, now in my fantasy story and before.

Dying is not only stake in a story or in a fight. Fighting for a certain moral you uphold can be a stake too, and if a person dies, all the personal connection the reader (eh, and especially the author, I lol) had with a character, as much as their personal quests, are gone with them.
So I'm not too much of a fan that some stories are killing off characters left and right to show you how "serious and dark" the world is, but not really respecting the bond people already have been formed with that character. If someone dies, it should have a lot of aftermath in the story and for the other characters left behind, imo, and not just dying for the sake of not having plot armor and the shock for the audience.

And there are naturally, being a D&D inspired story, quite a lot of fighting different monsters and people too, but there is healing magic. It can't do everything, and even if you survive, it can leave people with a physical disability of some kind, but it still can do quite a lot.

My main character is poisoned with pure iron (because elves are weak to it) at the start, and they almost died there and lost their connection to most of their former, powerful spellcasting and wildshape abilities. Although it's clear they won't die right from the start, they can't just clap their hands to regain all of their powers and wash the poison out of their body all at once.
It's not about dying or surviving the poison in the narrative, but feeling helpless and regaining their powers piece by piece, because while consuming media myself, I think personal stakes in fiction and getting involved with a character are way more interesting than putting them at risk everytime in a fight.

Also it's a D&D-inspired world of the multiverse in there. To be honest, I really can't answer why one fireball doesn't kill anyone immediately haha.
If there is strong elemential power or anything similar, I try that the characters doing counterspells or find some sort of hiding place at the field, because I couldn't explain how a fireball could hit someone humanoid, or not immortal, frontally and not killing them, realistically speaking.
I can explain why a sword in the stomach doesn't kill someone, if there is healing and medicine nearby (directly in the heart, forget it), but I struggle with some spells and the sort.

 

[pmmg]

Also it's a D&D-inspired world of the multiverse in there. To be honest, I really can't answer why one fireball doesn't kill anyone immediately haha.
If there is strong elemential power or anything similar, I try that the characters doing counterspells or find some sort of hiding place at the field, because I couldn't explain how a fireball could hit someone humanoid, or not immortal, frontally and not killing them, realistically speaking.
I can explain why a sword in the stomach doesn't kill someone, if there is healing and medicine nearby (directly in the heart, forget it), but I struggle with some spells and the sort.

In D&D, there are hit points. And the roll of the dice is not a pure indication of where and how hit. Points are subtracted, meaning only that something happened to lower the opponents ability to avoid a fatal hit in the future. But HP itself represents some combination of Stamina, Mass, Ability to Absorb, Luck, Ability to evade, Divine providence, Skill, and a whole bunch of other factors that mean somehow, even a fireball from the front is not fatal.

Fire itself is not always fatal. One can pass through flames rapidly enough to avoid damage in many instances, and if nothing ignites, they dont even have to drop and roll. And there are many ways to be burnt without it being fatal. Did you know that people burned at the stake tend to die from the inhaling of hot gasses which causes them to suffocate, and not from the flames themselves? If I am wearing even a small amount of protection, like leather gloves, for instance, I can do things like reach into a fire and move coals or logs around, and not be burned. A fireball hit could be non-fatal in many ways. They reacted and twisted, presenting a side that was more protected, or covered their vitals. Maybe the flames buffeted a cape or cloak that can be easily discarded. Very likely they could become singed in some areas but not all, and if they do not inhale the flames, they would not likely take a fatal burning. If they have any protection at all, like leather or armor, flames still have to heat and move past them to ruin flesh. Burns are actually, rarely, instantly fatal, which is why fire is such a terrible way to go. I think, for a fireball to be most effective, it would have to gush flame over a enough of a period that those in it would not be able to avoid inhaling. If the flames dont last too long, though singed, some would survive.... So does that not come back to the power, luck and skill of the caster? Perhaps their fireball just isn't all that strong in any given circumstance.

Incidentally, another thing about fire is its not as instantly painful as one might assume. If the heat is sufficient, it will burn through flesh and kill nerve endings so fast that one can be on fire and not even know (go ahead, ask me how I know ). It may not be immediately immobilizing or incapacitating. Its effects might not come till a short while after the initial effects. When nerves comes back, shock wears off, and flesh around destroyed flesh starts to respond. And of course, with all the loss of temperature regulation and fluid retention. Which is to say, one can be severely burned and still function for a short time, only to succumb minutes or days later.

 

[Rexenm]

I think it depends on the climate. An old man may be robbed before he drops an H, a kid could be run over by a car. There are some acts of violence that can’t often be portrayed, unless in a holiday or festive season..

It's not about dying or surviving the poison in the narrative, but feeling helpless and regaining their powers piece by piece, because while consuming media myself, I think personal stakes in fiction and getting involved with a character are way more interesting than putting them at risk everytime in a fight.

I think the fight is over when you are in it, and present before and after, does anyone else feel thus? It is like closing your eyes, in a flick.

 

[Fyri]

If the heat is sufficient, it will burn through flesh and kill nerve endings so fast that one can be on fire and not even know (go ahead, ask me how I know ).

How do you know?

 

[LittleOwlbear]

In D&D, there are hit points. And the roll of the dice is not a pure indication of where and how hit. Points are subtracted, meaning only that something happened to lower the opponents ability to avoid a fatal hit in the future. But HP itself represents some combination of Stamina, Mass, Ability to Absorb, Luck, Ability to evade, Divine providence, Skill, and a whole bunch of other factors that mean somehow, even a fireball from the front is not fatal.

Fire itself is not always fatal. One can pass through flames rapidly enough to avoid damage in many instances, and if nothing ignites, they dont even have to drop and roll. And there are many ways to be burnt without it being fatal. Did you know that people burned at the stake tend to die from the inhaling of hot gasses which causes them to suffocate, and not from the flames themselves? If I am wearing even a small amount of protection, like leather gloves, for instance, I can do things like reach into a fire and move coals or logs around, and not be burned. A fireball hit could be non-fatal in many ways. They reacted and twisted, presenting a side that was more protected, or covered their vitals. Maybe the flames buffeted a cape or cloak that can be easily discarded. Very likely they could become singed in some areas but not all, and if they do not inhale the flames, they would not likely take a fatal burning. If they have any protection at all, like leather or armor, flames still have to heat and move past them to ruin flesh. Burns are actually, rarely, instantly fatal, which is why fire is such a terrible way to go. I think, for a fireball to be most effective, it would have to gush flame over a enough of a period that those in it would not be able to avoid inhaling. If the flames dont last too long, though singed, some would survive.... So does that not come back to the power, luck and skill of the caster? Perhaps their fireball just isn't all that strong in any given circumstance.

Incidentally, another thing about fire is its not as instantly painful as one might assume. If the heat is sufficient, it will burn through flesh and kill nerve endings so fast that one can be on fire and not even know (go ahead, ask me how I know ). It may not be immediately immobilizing or incapacitating. Its effects might not come till a short while after the initial effects. When nerves comes back, shock wears off, and flesh around destroyed flesh starts to respond. And of course, with all the loss of temperature regulation and fluid retention. Which is to say, one can be severely burned and still function for a short time, only to succumb minutes or days later.

I mean, D&D has HP but you can't write a book with HPs and people just sleeping away deep slashing wounds. They seem much more like game characters than real people then.

The other paragraph: yes, fair points. Thank you for your inputs.

Edit: how do you know? :|

 

[Finchbearer]

Could Bat Man really survive all the crap he does, dodge bullets even...no. But I accept, hes special in that way, and it does not upset my sense of disbelief to see it.

With something like Batman though you’re talking about something that was created over 80 years ago. If that was written today, I don’t think it would be as ‘believable’. It’s only because we all know, without even realising it, that Batman really speaks of the time it was made.

If we’re writing fantasy that is going to speak to todays audience, how can plot armour be sufficient for characters to carried along without being severely injured over and over again and it not stopping them in their tracks, or a modern perspective being taken?

 

[pmmg]

Ah...well....short story is, I inadvertently rested my arm against the nozzle of a blowtorch once while do plumbing in my brother's basement. It was probably a 1000 degrees. Did I know I did that? Nope...not till it burned nice little wedge into my arm and started to burn the rest of the flesh around it. It was completely painless in the area that was actually touching the torch. Fortunately, it was unlit (or maybe not, cause it would have been lit, i might have been more careful).


Just a little push back on Bat Man, as Bat Man too has evolved over 80 years. In his earliest renditions, he did not even wear bullet proof armor. But, I could replace him with John Wick, who is more modern. Is John Wick Bull Sh*t? Yes. Do I care...No, not really.

 

[Fyri]

Just a little push back on Bat Man, as Bat Man too has evolved over 80 years. In his earliest renditions, he did not even wear bullet proof armor. But, I could replace him with John Wick, who is more modern. Is John Wick Bull Sh*t? Yes. Do I care...No, not really.

Well, here we should probably keep in mind that these stories lean into the "Action" genre and people tend to expect more plot armor for cool explosions and epic escapes from things like that. Fantasy without an "Action movie" subgenre often seeks immersion differently.

Ah...well....short story is, I inadvertently rested my arm against the nozzle of a blowtorch once while do plumbing in my brother's basement. It was probably a 1000 degrees. Did I know I did that? Nope...not till it burned nice little wedge into my arm and started to burn the rest of the flesh around it. It was completely painless in the area that was actually touching the torch. Fortunately, it was unlit (or maybe not, cause it would have been lit, i might have been more careful).

... I wanna see a picture... for science...

I guess there is "so hot, it's cold" and then there's "so hot, it's nonexistent, like some of my flesh now. "

Also...how long did it take you to notice and why did you finally notice? Like... Was it because after the initial touch, the further away parts of your arm started screaming in pain?

*takes notes for new ways to write about fire wounds in my books* I wonder if lava would even be painful, now.

 

[pmmg]

Stories would probably not get very far without plot armor.

There's not much to see anymore. I had a scar for about 20 years, but now its faded and hard to see. My recollection was, I was working overhead and put my arms down. I waited. and felt the pressure of it, but thought nothing of it. Then...WTF? OW! and jerking away. My guess is 2 seconds or so. Even then I was like, what was that, did not even think it was a burn. More fun news, when you work on plumbing, you turn the water off, so there was not even cold water to run it under. Pretty much melted the skin. It was like instantly marked. I thought it would be permanent, and it was for many years. (come to think of it, the house was eventually torn down and a new one built...so there is nothing really left of the event to show).

Not that anyone cares, but I also got burned pretty badly using an oven-mitt to pull a pan from the oven. The oven mit, unknown to me, was wet. It went right through the water like the mitt wasn't there. Got that whole webbing area between the thumb and fore finger. New lesson...dont use an oven-mitt if it has a wet spot.

 

[Rexenm]

Ha ha, I just imagine a Peter Griffin Segway, when thinking about pain...

Comedy injuries are sometimes way more serious than real ones though. At school, there was so much glee, that Mother Nature couldn’t let us get away without an injury or two. I seen scrapes, broken bones, heavy objects….

I did not know burn injuries were like boiling water however, with the hot, and cold, thing. I think cold would be better, unless it was liquid nitrogen, or a dragon. You can tell if it is a dragon, there is no struggling before demise.

 

[Fyri]

Stories would probably not get very far without plot armor.

There's not much to see anymore. I had a scar for about 20 years, but now its faded and hard to see. My recollection was, I was working overhead and put my arms down. I waited. and felt the pressure of it, but thought nothing of it. Then...WTF? OW! and jerking away. My guess is 2 seconds or so. Even then I was like, what was that, did not even think it was a burn. More fun news, when you work on plumbing, you turn the water off, so there was not even cold water to run it under. Pretty much melted the skin. It was like instantly marked. I thought it would be permanent, and it was for many years. (come to think of it, the house was eventually torn down and a new one built...so there is nothing really left of the event to show).

Not that anyone cares, but I also got burned pretty badly using an oven-mitt to pull a pan from the oven. The oven mit, unknown to me, was wet. It went right through the water like the mitt wasn't there. Got that whole webbing area between the thumb and fore finger. New lesson...dont use an oven-mitt if it has a wet spot.

Man. I hate accidents like that in the moment, but love them years later when I can use them for writing experience/knowledge. Not battle scars, but I feel like they should get some kind of cool name... hmm