Christianity and pseudo-Christianity in otherwise fantasy worlds

[Mythopoet]

Well I'm not convinced the fraction of books with "monotone" religions is as small as you say. I think the religions in most fantasy could be fairly described as "monotone", because most people don't really flesh them out. You say "monotone" religion is the work of atheists. I observe that most fantasy religions are "monotone". I therefore conclude that you are implying, though perhaps unintentionally, that most fantasy is the work of atheists. That seems unlikely to me, so I am skeptical of your explanation.

Well, I think that fantasy that spends much time at all dealing with religion is only a small subset of all the fantasy.

And no, I didn't say that monotone religion "is the work of atheists". I said that I think it is at least partly due to a certain type of atheist. Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

 

[FifthView]

Ok, but you still haven't given me a single concrete example. I'm really interested in a title or an author that I can look up because I would be interested in seeing how that kind of portrayal is executed.

When I can find the time, I'll sift through my brain and three decades' worth of reading and create you a list.

I find it odd that you've not run into any of these examples, however, because there are many. Of course not all, and in fact not most, fantasy novels utilize the types of examples I gave in my previous post. But examples do exist. Mostly I've made a note of them in my head when I've been reading, then kept reading unperturbed. But I didn't keep a running written list over the decades because I didn't expect to have to pull out one as an example of how Christians aren't uniformly lambasted in fantasy literature when Christian tenets, organization, etc., (the "trappings") are used.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't think Christians have been uniformly lambasted. I've read fantasy novels with positive views of Christians. I think Andrew Greeley even wrote some stuff that qualifies as fantasy. But I'd say that at least among modern fiction, books that take a dim view of Christian theology and morality, directly or indirectly, are more prevalent.

 

[FifthView]

But I'd say that at least among modern fiction, books that take a dim view of Christian theology and morality, directly or indirectly, are more prevalent.

I'd like a more thorough discussion of something I mentioned in my previous post, which seems to have gone by the wayside since I wrote it.

When developing a medieval-ish society in fantasy, what is particularly wrong with styling a pseudo-Christian church after medieval Christian beliefs and practices, in part or in whole?

 

[Mythopoet]

I'm not looking for books where Christians just aren't lambasted. WeilderoftheMonkeyBlade specifically mentioned reading books where there are "carbon-copy of Christianity" religions where "everyone in that religion is amazing and wonderful". I've never, ever come across such a thing. Never, ever heard of a depiction of religion based on Christianity where all the people in the religion are "amazing and wonderful" in any fantasy book. That's what I'm interested in. I could name works where Christianity or pseudo-Christianity is depicted positively. Not the same thing. I'm wondering if there really are any works out there that are as unbalanced in Christianity's favor as all the books I've read are unbalanced against it.

 

[X Equestris]

I'd like a more thorough discussion of something I mentioned in my previous post, which seems to have gone by the wayside since I wrote it.

When developing a medieval-ish society in fantasy, what is particularly wrong with styling a pseudo-Christian church after medieval Christian beliefs and practices, in part or in whole?

Nothing. But acting like such an organization is almost entirely one thing or another is something of a disservice.

 

[FifthView]

Nothing. But acting like such an organization is almost entirely one thing or another is something of a disservice.

Sometimes a story only needs the persecution, and a segue to some tiny, powerless sect within the church opposed to burning witches would only be a distraction, however fair and balanced.

I say this never having written such a thing. My current WIP has a society that practices a sort of deistic form of religion, albeit founded upon belief in a goddess who has stepped back after designing the world and setting things in motion. And there is a philosophical schism, and a handful of extremists on either side of the point of dispute. And both are wrong about their goddess and the origin of their empire -- so, not monotone.

 

[Russ]

When I can find the time, I'll sift through my brain and three decades' worth of reading and create you a list.

I find it odd that you've not run into any of these examples, however, because there are many. Of course not all, and in fact not most, fantasy novels utilize the types of examples I gave in my previous post. But examples do exist. Mostly I've made a note of them in my head when I've been reading, then kept reading unperturbed. But I didn't keep a running written list over the decades because I didn't expect to have to pull out one as an example of how Christians aren't uniformly lambasted in fantasy literature when Christian tenets, organization, etc., (the "trappings") are used.

Factually I am with MP on this one. I can't think of a example in modern fantasy fiction I have read that portrays Christianity or Christianity in disguise in the positive light WMB suggested is troubling. At the very least I think Steerpike has it right, that books critical of traditional Christianity are far more common than the very few that might have positive portrayals.

I think there are reasons for this, and am not the slightest bit concerned about it, but I do think we have to recognize it is a trend of some staying power.

 

[X Equestris]

Sometimes a story only needs the persecution, and a segue to some tiny, powerless sect within the church opposed to burning witches would only be a distraction, however fair and balanced.

I say this never having written such a thing. My current WIP has a society that practices a sort of deistic form of religion, albeit founded upon belief in a goddess who has stepped back after designing the world and setting things in motion. And there is a philosophical schism, and a handful of extremists on either side of the point of dispute. And both are wrong about their goddess and the origin of their empire -- so, not monotone.

All you need in that story would be one person to speak up. Just one. It could be done easily enough, without being intrusive.

Further, the notion that witch burning was some big thing in the Middle Ages is fundamentally flawed. In fact, for quite a while the belief that magic was real was considered heretical. Witch hunts didn't really take off until the tail end of the Middle Ages/ early Renaissance, and even then they've been over exaggerated in popular history.

 

[FifthView]

@Mythopoet & @Russ,

We may have been arguing past each other, because I wasn't addressing works "as unbalanced in Christianity's favor." Although, I do think that including a positive portrayal, however limited, without a corresponding negative portrayal within a novel could be counted as an overall positive portrayal. So most of my non-specific (unreferenced) examples were meant to cover such cases. I don't think that a writer would have to write variations of the Narnia books to be considered among those who have given a positive portrayal -- although writing an explicitely pro-Christian novel is not the same thing as borrowing Christian themes.

 

[FifthView]

All you need in that story would be one person to speak up. Just one. It could be done easily enough, without being intrusive.

Further, the notion that witch burning was some big thing in the Middle Ages is fundamentally flawed. In fact, for quite a while the belief that magic was real was considered heretical. Witch hunts didn't really take off until the tail end of the Middle Ages/ early Renaissance, and even then they've been over exaggerated in popular history.

They weren't overexaggerated for the women who burned.

And, again, story scope is an issue. Not all stories are expansive, realist opuses, covering every region of a nation or countryside and including treatises on every variation in ideology and religious practices. The idea that you'd "need" just one person to speak up sounds like the imperative to write politically-correct. Well, yes, the witch's family might speak up; but they may not be members of that church. A neighbor of that witch who is a member of the church may not be an official in the church--and might in any case keep his mouth shut.

 

[X Equestris]

They weren't overexaggerated for the women who burned.

And, again, story scope is an issue. Not all stories are expansive, realist opuses, covering every region of a nation or countryside and including treatises on every variation in ideology and religious practices. The idea that you'd "need" just one person to speak up sounds like the imperative to write politically-correct. Well, yes, the witch's family might speak up; but they may not be members of that church. A neighbor of that witch who is a member of the church may not be an official in the church--and might in any case keep his mouth shut.

I'm saying that all you need to show that the religion and its followers aren't some monolithic evil organization is one person at any level to saying something. I'm not saying you have to do that. Just don't pretend it's something super hard to do, because it isn't.

 

[FifthView]

I'm saying that all you need to show that the religion and its followers aren't some monolithic evil organization is one person at any level to saying something. I'm not saying you have to do that. Just don't pretend it's something super hard to do, because it isn't.

And I'm saying there is no imperative to do so--for some stories.

Besides, I'm not sure that one or two lone voices can really counterweigh an institutional representation that also runs deep culturally. Their turning away from that establishment only reinforces that negative representation, doesn't it? And the idea of potential reformation of the institution may be out of place for the story.

But I do get what you are saying. I don't think we are necessarily debating over the utility of simplistic caricatures. I mean, saying that all adherents of a religion drool blood from their lips -- from eating babies. BUT, acquiescence to flogging adulterers or stoning gays....such acquiescence can happen.

 

[Devor]

They weren't overexaggerated for the women who burned.

Witchcraft persecutions were almost entirely local events and most had more to do with property disputes and local hysteria than organized religion. On the macro-level, they happened during times of religious upheaval, when people all over the place were worshiping "strange new ideas," and people generally had real fears about the unknowns of what people did or didn't believe. But in general, they were mostly still local, petty events - disorganized, inconsistent, odd.

So if people were to start listing times and events where religions are poorly, unfairly portrayed, witchburning would be at the top of almost any list. It simply didn't happen the way most people want to portray it, and when it's used as the basis of a story, it's a framework that's ripe for promoting ignorant stereotypes.

 

[Russ]

They weren't overexaggerated for the women who burned.

No, but the claims in many pop culture or counter-culture sources that millions of women were burned are simply false.

 

[FifthView]

And, again, story scope is an issue.

I.e. localized vs. expansive.

 

[Russ]

And, again, story scope is an issue.

I.e. localized vs. expansive.

Except that the original comment and your response did not evolve in the context of story. X Eq just said that this phenomena has been portrayed inaccurately "in popular history." So story scope has nothing to do with that question in the real world, which was what the comment was about. It was not a "story" comment X Eq made.

But, if you feel irresistibly driven to put it in the context of story, the question of the writer then becomes, do I want to write a story that reinforces a false negative mythology, or do a want to write something more truthful at any level?

Let us say you lived in a place where the popular mythology was that Jews killed babies in rituals, but you understood that was not true. Do you want to write a story that reinforces that myth (directly or indirectly) or do you want to write something subversive on behalf of the truth that runs contrary to a popular falsehood?

Either way, knowing the truth of a thing is important and should not be ignored.

 

[FifthView]

So if people were to start listing times and events where religions are poorly, unfairly portrayed, witchburning would be at the top of almost any list. It simply didn't happen the way most people want to portray it, and when it's used as the basis of a story, it's a framework that's ripe for promoting ignorant stereotypes.

We are not talking about portraying medieval Europe, nor about portraying existing forms of Christianity.

We are talking about fantasy religions in fantasy worlds.

I am not talking about any fantasy world in which the religion is called "Christianity" and follows every precept of some existing form of Christianity. The world is not called "Earth."

The religion I am using (in this theoretical novel) may need to be hierarchical, prone to persecution of witches – after all, my MC is a witch and so is her female lover; so, drama, tension, etc. – so I might take from the idea of historical witch burnings and expand it to flesh out my fictional religion. Because my MC is female and has a female lover, I might also decide to make this fictional religion homophobic. Because both of those characters are poor, I might also build into the idea of this fictional church the idea that the wealthy can actually pay the leader of that church a large sum of money to be forgiven any witchery or homosexual activity, as long as they promise to no longer indulge in those. (Consequently, some wealthy lesbian witches can keep paying for these special absolutions. But there are few of these.) Only men are allowed to serve in the church. This religious institution, while not a part of the political institutions, has great sway over them. Additional features of this religion may involve rituals, beliefs and practices from other traditions, and some may even be entirely my own invention.

But, if you feel irresistibly driven to put it in the context of story, the question of the writer then becomes, do I want to write a story that reinforces a false negative mythology, or do a want to write something more truthful at any level?

"At any level" may be the crux of the issue, or one crux. Witch burnings happened. Some religious pretext was involved, or excuse if you will, regardless of whether they were primarily politically motivated or economically motivated. And we can include the burning of other, non-witch heretics. And other practices and beliefs that will serve a story. And these things can serve truth, in the way that metaphor serves truth. Persecution happened. One form or another. And still does.

Is writing about demon-summoners "[reinforcing] a false negative mythology?" Are we serving truth when we write about dragons, magic, and so forth?

 

[X Equestris]

"At any level" may be the crux of the issue, or one crux. Witch burnings happened. Some religious pretext was involved, or excuse if you will, regardless of whether they were primarily politically motivated or economically motivated. And we can include the burning of other, non-witch heretics. And other practices and beliefs that will serve a story. And these things can serve truth, in the way that metaphor serves truth. Persecution happened. One form or another. And still does.

Is writing about demon-summoners "[reinforcing] a false negative mythology?" Are we serving truth when we write about dragons, magic, and so forth?

Of course those things occurred, and showing them is fine. On the other hand, making the group carrying them out a giant, monolithic, puppy kicking strawman would be a disservice, and that would feed off of and reinforce negative stereotypes about religious people in general. It doesn't have to be specific to any single religion.

No organization is entirely black or white.

 

[Devor]

We are not talking about portraying medieval Europe, nor about portraying existing forms of Christianity.

We are talking about fantasy religions in fantasy worlds.

I am not talking about any fantasy world in which the religion is called "Christianity" and follows every precept of some existing form of Christianity. The world is not called "Earth."

The religion I am using (in this theoretical novel) . . .

The conversation is about pseudo-Christian religions; religions that are obviously based somewhat on Christianity. Is it me or do you keep moving the benchmark for the conversation? I was responding to a comment you made that witch burnings "weren't overexaggerated for the women who burned." But now you're responding as if I was condemning your book?

Also, again, witch burnings weren't a thing in "medieval" Europe. They didn't happen until the religious upheavals of the Renaissance and Reformation. They weren't McCarthy-ist "give me a name" hunts. They weren't hunting down and exterminating old pagan sects. They were petty people hearing about all sorts of silly new beliefs, getting antsy of what new old things might be out there. Witch hunts were, in fact, shunned and frowned upon even by the very Spanish Inquisition. So, again, stereotypes.